DIR- GUE Finding teammates after failing fundamentals

[overthinking_diver]

So, if precision is important

I'm sure everyone here knows this but I'll say it just in case someone new to GUE somehow stumbles upon page 9 of this thread.
Precision is incredibly important for fundamentals. Everything in class is done relative to a fixed object in the water like a cookie on a horizontal line. You need to keep your positioning both vertical and horizontal relative to that object and your teammate as you do skills. If/when you lose it you need to reposition yourself (without swimming in a circle) before continuing with the particular drill.
Precise positioning when task loaded is one of the hardest things in class and one of the coolest and most useful skills you learn.

So there's no option to sacrifice even a little precision for more power. I think this is why they insist on the particular fin type. But as others have said, it doesn't have to be the exact model I was using.

 

[overthinking_diver]

My wife and I found that taking the course over two weekends (or at least with some time in the middle) helps to reduce the fatigue (both physical and mental) that doing it in one continuous go takes on you. YMMV.

Yes, I'm pretty sure if I had done that I wouldn't have burned out and failed. I would've gotten a provisional. On the flip side, my instructor did say that if people take too much time off between the two parts with no diving they have to start almost from scratch. A week or two seems like a happy medium. But as you say YMMV.

 

[KevinNM]

Tech passes aren’t Hell Week either, but they are significantly harder than a rec pass.

I'm sure everyone here knows this but I'll say it just in case someone new to GUE somehow stumbles upon page 9 of this thread.
Precision is incredibly important for fundamentals. Everything in class is done relative to a fixed object in the water like a cookie on a horizontal line. You need to keep your positioning both vertical and horizontal relative to that object and your teammate as you do skills. If/when you lose it you need to reposition yourself (without swimming in a circle) before continuing with the particular drill.
Precise positioning when task loaded is one of the hardest things in class and one of the coolest and most useful skills you learn.

So there's no option to sacrifice even a little precision for more power. I think this is why they insist on the particular fin type. But as others have said, it doesn't have to be the exact model I was using.

The other thing that matters a lot is team cohesion. Is it more important to be precisely 20ft by yourself or with the team at 23? But that isn’t equipment related.

 

[Angelo Farina]

You know how much I enjoy your posts and the great respect I have for you, but let me point out that calling something "crap" without (1) an objective analysis of advantages and disadvantages and (2) understanding the needs of the diver is just not beneficial for others

Although less efficient with some type of kicking, rigid non-split fins are way more precise than split/flexible fins. This is particularly beneficial with back kicks, helicopter turns, and modified kicks. Besides, although less efficient, using them is definitely not too much of an effort whenever high power is unnecessary. Frankly speaking, I can think of very few conditions when high power is a must - like a strong current; but a physically well-trained diver can easily use rigid non-split fins even in high current situations. So, if precision is important and the diver is in good shape, rigid non-split fins are definitely the best choice "almost always" (there will always be exceptions). Given that the most significant difference among various rigid non-split fins is buoyancy, as others pointed out, calling jet fins "crap" is at least misleading. Then, again, they are absolutely too negative in this specific case, and other options might be more optimal.

Between "crap jet fins" and "excellent nova fins," if I wear a drysuit, there is no doubt "crap jet fins" are the way to go for me. If I am wet diving, there is no point in using negative fins, but surely I would not go for the nova or other split/non-rigid ones. Precision is so much fun that losing it does not make sense.

I understand it's a matter of personal preference, so feel free to use what you want - no judgment at all. But it would help much more to present advantages and disadvantages objectively and let others make their choices instead of giving judgments without explaining why

Peace & love, and dive safe!

I consider the Scubapro Jetfins "crap" compared with original Beuchat JetFins, which were quite good (albeit smelling bad, while the SP ones had a nice vanilla flavour). I owned both, so I can compare their performances...
Almost the same shape (no hole on the tip in the Beuchat), but quite different rubber.
Regarding a comparative analysis and the reasons for which I consider the Scubapro version "crap" (whilst providing explanation of their success for the very specific task of cave-wreck diving), see my recent posts in this other thread:

Wanted - Scubapro Jet Fins, white, XL, no hole in front of fin

White balance is actually with an 18% gray card Shoot RAW and white-balance in post. I'm not very serious about my underwater photography but like nice photos to share with family and friends and to include in reviews. I shoot ambient light in JPEG with a Canon G7X in a Nauticam housing with...

scubaboard.com

Regarding the fact that a diver can still kick efficiently in a strong current using the crap SP Jetfins, this is not my experience. We had several divers swept away by current when I was working at Maldives and in small islands around Sicily (Favignana, Marettimo, Levanzo, etc.).
In these places if you do not own proper strong flexible fins, and you do not know know how to use them properly, and if you are not streamlined, the current will always win.
I understand that these are conditions not found everywhere, but strong currents in open sea diving are quite common, and having proper fins (as the original Beuchat Jetfins were) can help significantly.

The need for these precision movements inside a wreck, instead, are required only in rare cases. And they can be replaced with opposition of hands, a technique widely employed in synchro swimming and in water polo, and which can be equally efficient for these manoeuvres inside a small, silty place. Problem is that this technique was only taught in FIPSAS courses until 1980, then it faded out. But I am still using it when diving in caves. In some caves here, like in Grotta Giusti, it is forbidden to use fins at all!

The OP was in a wetsuit, so there is no point about how other kinds of fins could have been suited him if he was in a dry suit.
For his wet suit, his Nova fins were probably just perfect, with two additional advantages: he did already own them (so no money required) and he was already used to them (so less new things to master).
It is always advisable to introduce new equipment one item after the other. Changing many things together can cause problems.

 

[ginti]

I consider the Scubapro Jetfins "crap" compared with original Beuchat JetFins, which were quite good (albeit smelling bad, while the SP ones had a nice vanilla flavour). I owned both, so I can compare their performances...
Almost the same shape (no hole on the tip in the Beuchat), but quite different rubber.

Ok; this is a more detailed explanation - many thanks! Although performance can be a lot of different things - again, for me, precision is the most important aspect to evaluate. Also, crap compared to the best is not really crap; it's just not the best... but anyway, I think the point was clear

The OP was in a wetsuit, so there is no point about how other kinds of fins could have been suited him if he was in a dry suit.

Agree

For his wet suit, his Nova fins were probably just perfect, with the two additional advantages: he did already own them (so no money required) and he was already used to them (so less new things to master).

Again, no. It depends on what is the priority of the diver. There exist many rigid non-split fins that are less buoyant than jet fins. Divers who want precision should prioritize these fins (examples before in this thread) over split or flexible fins.

Having a pair of fins that are comfortable does not make them adequate for precision kicking; rigid non-split fins are adequate for this purpose

It is always advisable to introduce new equipment one item after the other. Changing many things together can cause problems.

Agree, but that was a choice of the OP, and I think @overthinking_diver got the lesson

 

[Angelo Farina]

Again, no. It depends on what is the priority of the diver. There exist many rigid non-split fins that are less buoyant than jet fins. Divers who want precision should prioritize these fins (examples before in this thread) over split or flexible fins.

Well, getting precision is mostly a problem of skillness, not of equipment.
Improper equipment can be a nuisance, as it happened here, but the capability of moving with precision should be a skillness almost independent on the equipment used.
The equipment should not be always the same, it should be adapted to the environment. As I already explained, there is a nice cave here in Italy, grotta Giusti, where it is forbidden to wear any suit, or any type of fins.
Of course the diving guides teach hand opposition just before proceeding with the real dive...
Thanks to hand opposition, I can make very precise movements in still water when using my long Cressi Rondine Gara fins, because simply I do not rely on them for getting the movement I want.
The whole point of the GUE Fundamentals course is to learn some of this precision movement skillness, using fins for propulsion, rotation, backward motion, etc.
GUE does not teach or recommends the hand opposition technique.
The idea is that it is better to learn these fins tricks using the very same equipment which one later will use when diving normally.
If the OP had intention to continue diving with his wetsuit and Nova fins, he had better done the course with this equipment.
If instead the goal was to switch to a more "tech" equipment (dry suit, heavy rigid fins, twin tanks), then It had been better to purchase and get used to this equipment well ahead of the course.
In both cases, it had been useful to discuss these issues with the instructor before beginning the course.
He could well have advised him to use lightweight rigid fins, as those used in underwater hockey (my son has a pair of them)...
In any case, we both agree that using the Scubapro Jetfin was not the optimal choice in this case.
I still do not understand why people purchase them, when the original Beuchat ones, which are far better, are still in production and easy to buy. See here:

Jetfin Beuchat Adjustable Rubber Diving Fins

The Jetfin is Beuchat's first diving fin! Revisited in 2023 with modern materials and new colors!

www.beuchat-diving.com

 

[Angelo Farina]

And here the best fins for precision kicking in any directions.
Healthways Webbys, year 1949.

 

[steinbil]

Thanks to hand opposition, I can make very precise movements in still water when using my long Cressi Rondine Gara fins, because simply I do not rely on them for getting the movement I want.

I'm no cave diver, but AFAIK the reason GUE teaches to use only fins for propulsion, positioning and stability is that you need your hands for other things, like running a line, doing a gas switch, assisting a buddy. Moving your hands also makes light movement more erratic, which makes passive light communication more unclear. Which again is why they require fins that provide precise control.

 

[ginti]

Well, getting precision is mostly a problem of skillness, not of equipment.
Improper equipment can be a nuisance, as it happened here, but the capability of moving with precision should be a skillness almost independent on the equipment used.

As you said before, the right tool for the right job. Back kicking with flexible fins is annoying for a very expert diver, difficult for a proficient one whit little experience, and very hard for a newbie. Learning with flexible fins? It's a nightmare.

The equipment should not be always the same, it should be adapted to the environment. As I already explained, there is a nice cave here in Italy, grotta Giusti, where it is forbidden to wear any suit, or any type of fins.

Of course the diving guides teach hand opposition just before proceeding with the real dive...
Thanks to hand opposition, I can make very precise movements in still water when using my long Cressi Rondine Gara fins, because simply I do not rely on them for getting the movement I want.
The whole point of the GUE Fundamentals course is to learn some of this precision movement skillness, using fins for propulsion, rotation, backward motion, etc.
GUE does not teach or recommends the hand opposition technique.

GUE teaches something pretty specific. And rigid non-split fins are by far the best tool for that something. If divers want to learn something else, they should choose something different from GUE.

Sidemount in OW? Not GUE
Rebreather for rec diving? Not GUE
Sidemount rebreather? Not GUE
Octopus without long hose? Not GUE

And it would be perfectly fine for everyone - I would still dive with them, I promise

The idea is that it is better to learn these fins tricks using the very same equipment which one later will use when diving normally.
If the OP had intention to continue diving with his wetsuit and Nova fins, he had better done the course with this equipment.

Agree, but if that were the intention of the OP, GUE wouldn't be the choice

If instead the goal was to switch to a more "tech" equipment (dry suit, heavy rigid fins, twin tanks), then It had been better to purchase and get used to this equipment well ahead of the course.

Here I disagree. Purchasing equipment can be expensive, and a person without experience could waste money on something not useful for their purposes. Also, practicing without an instructor can make a diver learn bad habits, which can be a nightmare to unlearn later on...

In both cases, it had been useful to discuss these issues with the instructor before beginning the course.
He could well have advised him to use lightweight rigid fins, as those used in underwater hockey (my son has a pair of them)...
In any case, we both agree that using the Scubapro Jetfin was not the optimal choice in this case.

Agree, 100%

To be honest, I think we agree on many more points than it looks like from this thread. Still, when people write on a forum, it is more complicated to deliver a message, communication is slower, and misunderstanding is way too easy.

I still do not understand why people purchase them, when the original Beuchat ones, which are far better, are still in production and easy to buy. See here:

Jetfin Beuchat Adjustable Rubber Diving Fins

The Jetfin is Beuchat's first diving fin! Revisited in 2023 with modern materials and new colors!

www.beuchat-diving.com

Honestly, I never tried. But now I am curious - what exactly makes them better? The power, the energy efficiency, something else?

EDIT: I guess the most important reason is the availability of the brand; Beuchat is sometimes harder to find. I find ScubaPro very often, sometimes Apeks, but rarely Beuchat in physical and online shops. But it's just a guess.

And here the best fins for precision kicking in any directions.
Healthways Webbys, year 1949.

View attachment 783882

I trust you, although I bet that they wouldn't really serve well in a deco stop on strong current Am I right?

Many thanks for all the time you dedicate to the answers!

 

[ginti]

I'm no cave diver, but AFAIK the reason GUE teaches to use only fins for propulsion, positioning and stability is that you need your hands for other things, like running a line, doing a gas switch, assisting a buddy. Moving your hands also makes light movement more erratic, which makes passive light communication more unclear. Which again is why they require fins that provide precise control.

Spot on.

We also tend to do project diving, meaning that we sometimes use pencils, notes, cameras, sensors, test tubes, etc. in our diving.