Female Diver Missing on The Yukon, San Diego

[Dr. Lecter]

What I do have a problem with is when people state things as an absolute truth that may not be and then go off on a tangent about that.

This is already addressed by the rules. If someone states something they don't know as a fact, it should be so qualified. Once qualified, where they go from their speculative premises really is not anyone else's concern. Maybe what they reason from that speculation is dreck, maybe it's useful. Suffice to say that I'm much more comfortable with a rule that requires labeling speculation as such and leaving it at that, than I would be with a rule where you, SB, or anyone else decides where to draw the line you claim shouldn't be crossed.

IMO, if you think you know better as to something stated as a fact by a previous poster(s) you would better serve the purpose of this forum by identifying those specific errors, rather than making vague allusions to space aliens. If you cannot for whatever reasons say what your understanding of the facts is, or how you're privy to the knowledge that prior posts are in error, say that too. Everyone reviewing this A/I would then have more knowledge, even with just heavily-caveated claims that 'X, Y, and Z are wrong', than we received from what you just said.

 

[drbill]

I'm highly "edumacated" but won't venture any guess on this situation. Wouldn't be prudent. All I know for certain is that it is a sad situation for all involved and my condolences to her family and friends. I've only done one dive on the Yukon and that was during a period when the swell forecast was for 15-16 ft levels. Of course they didn't materialize but the seas were a bit rough that day. Not ideal but not really bad either despite a bit of bouncing around. If as has been stated the diver's BC had issues, I do have to wonder (= conjecture) why she wasn't able to ditch some weight and simply swim up. I've had two BC failures in my career (at least after I actually started using one) and could swim up from depth even without ditching my weight. Of course IF she panicked all bets are off. I'm assuming that the true story will emerge in the process of investigating this sad situation.

 

[Mike Boswell]

Not to stoke the speculation vs. no-specualtion fires again, but . . .

Be sure to read the comments below the aticle itself (which is 2 days old BTW - no new info - also contains assertion it was a DM class when it seems it was a Wreck class). They're talking murder, foul play, suspicious circumstances, the buddy's at fault, the charterer's at fault . . .

There's a fine line between educated guesses as to what might have happened due to known facts & known hazards of the area/dive, and basing your speculation on facts-not-in-evidence. Obviously a number of the people commenting in the CBS8 thread aren't divers (but some apparently know people who dive), but the general point is still the same and that's why, when it seems to me that we've strayed too far afield with the speculation in this forum (where people should know better), I personally feel a duty to speak up.

- Ken

Thanks, Ken.

In post 73 I provided the link because it provided more information (than I had yet seen in this thread) about Staci Jackson, along with photos and an interview with her relative.

---------- Post added December 4th, 2012 at 09:10 PM ----------

Might I suggest here that any further fussing is unnecessary and disrespectful?

 

[sandiego_frank]

I would agree that any further fussing is both unnecessary and disrespectful.

However, I think that we all should think about this accident and learn something from it. I have been certified a long time (40+ years) and have seen a lot of changes in equipment over the years that have made diving both easier and safer. I wonder, especially once you reach a certain level of experience, if we tend to get complacent because it can be easy. I am not in any way suggesting that anyone involved with this dive was complacent about the dive. None of us were on the Yukon dive that day, we do not really know what happened. We should not be speculating about the circumstances of the dive or the accident. However, what this accident shows is that the unexpected does happen and things can go wrong very quickly.

I would like to suggest that Ms Jackson’s legacy in the dive world should be that none of us ever get complacent about any dive. Diving can be easy, but it is still a dangerous activity. The unexpected will happen and we should try to be as equipped as we can be to deal with the unexpected. Have you ever discussed safety with your dive buddy? For example, there is speculation that there was a problem with her BC and that it was flooded. What would you or your dive buddy do if this were to happen to one of you? I do not recall seeing or hearing anything regarding how to handle this kind of equipment failure. My first thought would be to dump the weight pouches. Would that be enough to offset the weight of a BC full of water? Would I need to ditch my BC? I do not know the answer to those questions.

Enjoy every dive, but do not ever get complacent.

Semper Fi, Ms Jackson. Rest in Peace.

 

[TSandM]

I do not recall seeing or hearing anything regarding how to handle this kind of equipment failure. My first thought would be to dump the weight pouches. Would that be enough to offset the weight of a BC full of water?

The answer to this question is clear, once you realize that water has no weight underwater. If you are correctly weighted, you are negative by the weight of the gas you intend to consume, when you are at the surface. The weights you wear are primarily to neutralize the buoyancy of your exposure protection. As you descend, you lose buoyancy from anything that can compress, so in a thick wetsuit, you can be quite negative at depth, which is why you put air in your BC. But if your BC will not hold any air, and you are so negative that you cannot swim up (and the wisdom of diving a configuration that permits that is something else to think about), then if you drop your weights, you will now again be no more negative than the air in your tank, and everybody can swim up five pounds. The big problem in that situation is controlling your ascent, once your neoprene reexpands.

In practice, it is difficult to have a failure that completely disables a BC. About the only one that will do it is pulling the corrugated hose off the air bladder altogether -- and even that won't cause a disaster, if you are horizontal.

 

[mdb]

Well It is normal to see the duty experts offer their opinion on how and what to do in the event of an equipment failure.

Perhaps we can learn from the "I would have done this" kind of comments.

As Ken Kurtis has advised it may be best to wait until the investigation is complete. That could be months away.

In the meantime I'm sure the lawyers are circling and ready to sue all and anyone involved.

Semper Fidelis Marine, RIP.

 

[Hatul]

Here's simulation of BC failure in a 7mm wetsuit diver wearing a 13lb weight belt on a 90 ft dive.

NOWDIVE TV Balanced rig on film - Unified Team Diving

Note that she is unable to overcome the negative buoyancy just by finning, and after she dumps her weight belt she still has to fin to ascend. If the diver is able to, she can dump part of her weights-- just enough to fin up, but this would still result in positive buoyancy at shallow depths and excessive ascent rate. A better solution is to deploy the SMB.

 

[o2dependant]

Yea maybe from now on we should just post the news article and wait for the coroners report.

Some of you are way to sensitive. It only gets fussy when people make a big deal out of it. If you don't agree with a comment and its not hurting anyone let it go and ignore it.

These threads should be about taking a what usually ends as a tragic event Learning what went wrong and how to avoid, react and generally bettering one's self for the future. If speculation drags away from the actualities during the gaps of factual statements, where's the problem, we learn how a given situation can take many courses from the experience or imajination of others.

I don't see there is a problem with what has been discussed. Its a far cry from what is being posted on the news website. I have learned one great piece of advice from this discusion and it likely will have nothing to do with what happened that day but had we not speculated, It would not have been mentioned. I'll let you know if it ever saves my life.

I think you have opened a can of s?"t worms today guys that will dilute the further discusion on this accident forum.

 

[rjack321]

My PADI wreck class had 4 students, 1 instructor of record, a 2nd instructor as an assistant. Students were in buddy pairs with a supervising instructor. We didn't dive the Yukon per se, but we did dive an identical sister ship up here in BC (Mackenzie). There were exterior dives and dives including short penetrations about 25ft horizontal running. The latter were short partly because PADI wreck course standards dictate neither leaving the light zone, nor being >130ft from the surface (combined depth and horizontal penetration distance). Visibility at the time was about 8ft on the bottom with modest currents and no surge. Both instructors were experienced in managing a buddy pair of students under these conditions.

At this time, a decade+ after I took this course, I still don't think there's anything to change about how mine was run. I wouldn't describe it as "safe" but everything in life carries some risk. The only part I would change about mine was my choice of cylinder. I used an lp95 with a 19cf pony at the time. While within standards, its not that much gas for deeper dives (~85ft) when you are apprehensive about doing something new (e.g. running a reel) and your consumption has jumped up a bit.

I don't know if Staci's was different in any substantive way, I am just commenting on the concept of PADI wreck courses being inherently "flawed" or particularly dangerous in some way due to the way their standards are written or executed. I still have the PADI textbook and its actually surprisingly good at describing the hazards of wreck diving and penetration.

 

[antattack]

That video that points out a relevant factor in this incident.

Perhaps wet suits should be deliberately avoided whenever possible for deep, cold dives. In addition to poor insulating properties at depth, a neoprene wet suit creates a positive buoyancy problem if you have to ditch your weight at depth. Most dry suits beat the wet suit on both counts. I lost a dry suit wrist seal diving the Yukon a couple years ago- I had no problem managing the ascent even with a partially flooded dry suit because the suit held a bubble AND I still had my BCD. I'll certainly share this observation with other divers.

Dive safe.