reefvagabond
Contributor
any updates?
Fatality off of Point Lobos, California
- Thread starter DandyDon
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honusmiles
New
The younger diver on that day was a close friend of mine. I talked to his buddy for a while on the phone. The story he told me was more than unbelievable
Here it is:
The dive was going well there 2nd dive of the day
They stopped at 18ft for a safety stop on the way up
Suddenly , he says he notices my friend has started to sink and his past his feet by the time he sees this.
My friend has a fearful look on his face and seems out of air.
The Buddy gives him his regulator and my friend is able to breath as they head to the surface
All is well it seems right?
Not at all
When they get to the surface my friend seems only semi-conscious and the buddy is struggeling to keep him up he said he was too heavy to hold and both started sinking then he said he started doing this bobbing thing.. where he would hold him up while he was underwater then sort of trade position so he could then breath
Believe it or not after he did this bobbing thing for a while he determined he had done all he could let my friend sink to the bottom and swam ashore!
Shocking to say the least!
I asked why did you not blow up your BC vest fully? Yea, you would think that but it was a desperate situation
I asked why did you not pull off my friends weight belt? Yea, you would think that but it was a desperate situation
If you still had air (which he did) why did you not simply put the regulator in your mouth and hold him the best you could to then release the weights of you both and then manually fill my friends BC? My friends tank was dry.
Nothing no answers he gave made any sense
I ask this community to help me understand: How can a person give up on his buddy without even trying to do these basic life saving things and THEN leave him to sink to the bottom How can you have air in your tank and not swim down there ? even if my friend is unconscious swim down.. remove the weights blow up his BC and at least float the body back to the beach with you!!!
From the story he told me All I can really make of it.. is that my friend did run out of air fell semi-conscious He tried to hold him up for a little while then left him there to die.
I told him if that story is real he should, for the sake of the diving community never buddy up with anyone again I know I will never know what happened to my friend Because the story he told me was so so so full of holes
Here it is:
The dive was going well there 2nd dive of the day
They stopped at 18ft for a safety stop on the way up
Suddenly , he says he notices my friend has started to sink and his past his feet by the time he sees this.
My friend has a fearful look on his face and seems out of air.
The Buddy gives him his regulator and my friend is able to breath as they head to the surface
All is well it seems right?
Not at all
When they get to the surface my friend seems only semi-conscious and the buddy is struggeling to keep him up he said he was too heavy to hold and both started sinking then he said he started doing this bobbing thing.. where he would hold him up while he was underwater then sort of trade position so he could then breath
Believe it or not after he did this bobbing thing for a while he determined he had done all he could let my friend sink to the bottom and swam ashore!
Shocking to say the least!
I asked why did you not blow up your BC vest fully? Yea, you would think that but it was a desperate situation
I asked why did you not pull off my friends weight belt? Yea, you would think that but it was a desperate situation
If you still had air (which he did) why did you not simply put the regulator in your mouth and hold him the best you could to then release the weights of you both and then manually fill my friends BC? My friends tank was dry.
Nothing no answers he gave made any sense
I ask this community to help me understand: How can a person give up on his buddy without even trying to do these basic life saving things and THEN leave him to sink to the bottom How can you have air in your tank and not swim down there ? even if my friend is unconscious swim down.. remove the weights blow up his BC and at least float the body back to the beach with you!!!
From the story he told me All I can really make of it.. is that my friend did run out of air fell semi-conscious He tried to hold him up for a little while then left him there to die.
I told him if that story is real he should, for the sake of the diving community never buddy up with anyone again I know I will never know what happened to my friend Because the story he told me was so so so full of holes
I am very sorry for you loss and that you had to hear the story in such a matter of fact way.
Based on your profile you are a relatively new diver and as such your training is fresh in your mind and the many better alternatives are clearly apparent to you. I am sure that after the fact they were to your friends buddy for he surely had training that covered this stuff. It seems likely that several things contributed towards his actions. 1) His training may have been superficial. 2) He was not actively revisiting his training, even in the form of visualizing what to do "if'. 3) He panicked and was incapable of rationally responding.
The intent of training in skills and panic avoidance is to have the skills fresh enough to be automatic and not let panic shunt the ability to react. In some combination these 2 factors combined to leave your friend helpless.
Without knowing the depth below and amount of air the buddy had it is not possible to say if he should have headed down. While this may be hard to hear, a fundamental of Rescue Diver Training is to know when to give up and not cause two accidents. With the number of missed cues here I want to believe that the buddy was not so trained.
I hope your higher purpose in posting this is to raise awareness and safety. In that context I'm sure you recognize that your buddy apparently missed the mark on gas planning and the opportunity to drop his own weights.
While all of this could be avoided with basic OW skills it underscores the benefit of getting Rescue Diver training from the perspective of accident avoidance and response.
Thank you for sharing and again I am sorry for your loss.
Pete
Based on your profile you are a relatively new diver and as such your training is fresh in your mind and the many better alternatives are clearly apparent to you. I am sure that after the fact they were to your friends buddy for he surely had training that covered this stuff. It seems likely that several things contributed towards his actions. 1) His training may have been superficial. 2) He was not actively revisiting his training, even in the form of visualizing what to do "if'. 3) He panicked and was incapable of rationally responding.
The intent of training in skills and panic avoidance is to have the skills fresh enough to be automatic and not let panic shunt the ability to react. In some combination these 2 factors combined to leave your friend helpless.
Without knowing the depth below and amount of air the buddy had it is not possible to say if he should have headed down. While this may be hard to hear, a fundamental of Rescue Diver Training is to know when to give up and not cause two accidents. With the number of missed cues here I want to believe that the buddy was not so trained.
I hope your higher purpose in posting this is to raise awareness and safety. In that context I'm sure you recognize that your buddy apparently missed the mark on gas planning and the opportunity to drop his own weights.
While all of this could be avoided with basic OW skills it underscores the benefit of getting Rescue Diver training from the perspective of accident avoidance and response.
Thank you for sharing and again I am sorry for your loss.
Pete
Oh, my goodness, that is a HORRIBLE story. We normally think of panic as killing the person who panics, but in this case, it sounds as though panic killed the other diver. We don't know why the victim seemed unable to breathe -- whether his tank was empty, or whether he had a medical problem like IPE -- but once he was on the surface, he had the best chance with the big "gas tank in the sky". I can understand a person, acutely short of breath or experiencing horrible chest pain or otherwise seriously unwell, not thinking of inflating his BC or dropping his weights, but it is hard to imagine how the buddy did not think of those things, and yet clearly he did not.
I don't know his level of training, but I would certainly hope that anyone who had gone through a Rescue class would at least have thought of those interventions. This case is an extremely powerful reason for continuing your diving education at least through Rescue. We make fun of specialties and continuing education, because some of it is, to be honest, rather fluffy. But not Rescue. I think everyone should take that class.
I don't know his level of training, but I would certainly hope that anyone who had gone through a Rescue class would at least have thought of those interventions. This case is an extremely powerful reason for continuing your diving education at least through Rescue. We make fun of specialties and continuing education, because some of it is, to be honest, rather fluffy. But not Rescue. I think everyone should take that class.
How it can happen is that many open.water divers are not taught how to.assist a buddy in trouble. What you had here was an incident where two very simple and BASIC rescue skills - unconscious diver from depth and supporting a diver at the surface and helping them get positive may have resulted in a completely different and positive outcome. Yet there are some who have the mistaken belief that these are beyond the skill of the new diver.
This is not the first time that attitude has contributed to a death. And unless there is a change in standards it won't be the last. Some agencies have these skills in the OW class and they are definitely not beyond the ability of the new diver.
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This is not the first time that attitude has contributed to a death. And unless there is a change in standards it won't be the last. Some agencies have these skills in the OW class and they are definitely not beyond the ability of the new diver.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
honusmiles
New
Thank you all. Yes... It is time for Rescue Diver Training... and I hope many are paying attention to Just how easily and totally unnecessarily a person can die while scuba diving. Something I myself would NEVER had thought possible until this tragic incident. I agree... the guy obviously did not know what he was doing and clearly panicked BIG TIME! And that panic cost the life of my friend. Rescue Diver training coming up soon for me.
Bob DBF
Contributor
Even better, put Rescue training back into OW training where it belongs. And when that is done it might also be a good idea to bring back the pool time as well, it might repetitious to doff and don your weightbelt and/or gear, Ad nauseum, with and without a regulator involved, but at the end you might actually have the tools you need to survive an incident.
No way I'm saying I won't panic, but panic sets in when you run out of options. My opinion is that people are handed a card making them an Open Water diver before they have the skills and options to be one.
I am always terribly upset when a diver is lost on the surface. Throughout my "old school" training it has always been emphasized that in any emergency the only safe place is on the surface, and a lot of time was spent on insuring that once on the surface you knew how to stay there with your buddy, not just intellectually answering questions, but physically when tired and possibly harrassed.
I am very sorry for your loss. Take your rescue training and keep up practice afterwards.
Bob
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Crush
Contributor
+1 to the posts by Jim Lapenta and Bob DBF (above). The recollection of what you should do in a buddy rescue lasts a few months - this is typically learned in Basic OW. The recollection of what you did do, say, when practicing the rescue of a non-responsive diver lasts much longer and is typically only carried out in Rescue Diver.
I am sorry for your loss. I am not surprised that your friend's buddy panicked. If the problem was running out of air, it seems as though there may have been multiple errors on the part of both divers. Despite these errors a competent diver with rescue training should have been able to surface with your friend and keep him on the surface.
Take rescue diver training, and practice it at least once a year.
My personal opinion is that those persons who removed rescue training from the basic OW certification should receive a pat on the head for a job well done - with a hammer.
I am sorry for your loss. I am not surprised that your friend's buddy panicked. If the problem was running out of air, it seems as though there may have been multiple errors on the part of both divers. Despite these errors a competent diver with rescue training should have been able to surface with your friend and keep him on the surface.
Take rescue diver training, and practice it at least once a year.
My personal opinion is that those persons who removed rescue training from the basic OW certification should receive a pat on the head for a job well done - with a hammer.
tech_diver
Contributor
I'm a little surprised at the direction that this thread has taken and must be misinterpreting something (I'm counting on scubaboard members to scorch me if I'm out of line here.)
Is the surviving dive buddy and his response to the situation being held responsible in some way for this tragedy?
If we are to take the facts as reported in this thread (which we don't yet know to be the case), a diver ran out of air, became panicked, did not ditch their weight belt and lost their life. These are not advanced diving skills or advanced rescue skills. This diver moved on another diver who also began to panic and did not ditch their weight belt either almost costing that diver their life as well.
There are a number of people on this board who have lost friends in diving tragedies. In some cases,there may have been true negligence like CO poisoning or unsafe boat procedures. Sometimes, the diver themselves makes an unrecoverable mistake by themselves, on their own, that they are responsible for. Gas management is simply one of those things. We can build devices to watch our air supply that will beep, vibrate or light up but in the end the diver is responsible. Perhaps it is all that we can do to just keep driving the message, “Monitor your air supply.” (...like parents telling their children, "Do not smoke cigarettes".) More training is always better.
If I perish in a diving accident and it is found that I ran out of air, someone will reference this post in this forum and point out that I didn't follow my own advice. I will be forced to own my fate. Whatever I was taught in my PADI course 30 years ago won't matter. I configure and maintain my own equipment so I own any gear failure. If I'm diving with buddies, it would devastate me to think that those buddies might somehow be held responsible or endangered for my personal failures.
Is the surviving dive buddy and his response to the situation being held responsible in some way for this tragedy?
If we are to take the facts as reported in this thread (which we don't yet know to be the case), a diver ran out of air, became panicked, did not ditch their weight belt and lost their life. These are not advanced diving skills or advanced rescue skills. This diver moved on another diver who also began to panic and did not ditch their weight belt either almost costing that diver their life as well.
There are a number of people on this board who have lost friends in diving tragedies. In some cases,there may have been true negligence like CO poisoning or unsafe boat procedures. Sometimes, the diver themselves makes an unrecoverable mistake by themselves, on their own, that they are responsible for. Gas management is simply one of those things. We can build devices to watch our air supply that will beep, vibrate or light up but in the end the diver is responsible. Perhaps it is all that we can do to just keep driving the message, “Monitor your air supply.” (...like parents telling their children, "Do not smoke cigarettes".) More training is always better.
If I perish in a diving accident and it is found that I ran out of air, someone will reference this post in this forum and point out that I didn't follow my own advice. I will be forced to own my fate. Whatever I was taught in my PADI course 30 years ago won't matter. I configure and maintain my own equipment so I own any gear failure. If I'm diving with buddies, it would devastate me to think that those buddies might somehow be held responsible or endangered for my personal failures.
Crush
Contributor
I don't blame the buddy - I feel sorry for him/her because right now they probably feel very guilty and keep kicking themselves for what they should have done. I am also angry at most dive agencies who turn out a product that is unfinished (in that they don't have rescue skills). Rescue skills can help avoid senseless tragedy (e.g., one person who runs out of air - an assumption - and another who fails to ask their buddy about their gas status). You can't blame OW students that much because they don't know what they don't know.
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