Fatality Off Miami Beach - Florida

[danvolker]

it was indeed a good thing you did, and the dive community is a better place with you as a part of it. I do how ever have problems with your theory....30 to 40 ft of water, bcd inflated, something panic divers dont do, that to me is not a panic diver, that is I diver that is on the surface floating......removing fins at the ladder is one thing...removing fins in open water? pain in the butt. a panic diver reaching down to remove their fins in open water? um....no. a panic diver taking off their bcd which is keeping them afloat? I dont think so.

I agree...it has the sound that she did not know how to use fins well, or how to use the bc well....What we heard was that when she failed to descend with Ari's group, she "dog-paddled" back to the boat. That is a strong indication there was no skill with fins...and that later in a panic, she may have felt the fins a liability. This same type of panic diver would also strip off a mask. Plenty of instructors here will have seen this behavior in a pool, but typically this gets fixed long before the diver gets to an ocean dive.....

If any of us here had seen a diver dog paddle in fear, to the boat....and then after 15 minutes, elect to go back in solo.....would you allow this ? If you were boat crew? If you were a diver that happened to be on the boat still, wouldn't you begin a conversation with crew or captain about the mistake of allowing the solo dive at this point? If the boat was going to allow this, then would you jump in with her, and be there "just in case"?

Part of the problem is that if one of us is "just a diver on the boat", then there is the assumption that you have no business, getting "in" the business of the dive crew in handling things.....Typically we do not 2nd guess what a crew does, at least not during a trip--if we don't like things, we don't come back..... My guess is that plenty of the divers on that boat, after seeing how poorly the crew of the boat handled this poor woman, would "rock the boat" if they had this to do over--would have made a case to the crew or captain that the woman should not be in the water without an instructor.

Perhaps more facts will come out in the future, laying waste to the assumptions many of us are making at present. What makes this important to discuss and make assumptions about, is that the issues we are going over now, ARE things that can happen again on many dive boats....the elements as imagined right now, could easily happen again....

The first time any of us ran OOA, this caused us to make some changes ( most of us ) I think this is where we are here, with what a diver can or ought to do, if they see a diver they are certain has a dangerous lack of diving skills.....If you go out on enough charter boats, you will see divers that should not be in the water without an instructor. Right now, the thinking is that it is not your business....On the cave diving thread, there was a big argument by many divers that a cave diver would have NO Right to intercede when they see an open water trained diver heading in to a cave--a place they could clearly die, or kill someone else by silting. This was largely an Open Water Diver mindset, that NO ONE has the right to interceed without the call for help.....This would translate to the unfortunate accident here, where many would be saying that they would not have the RIGHT to interfere with this woman's dive....several divers even indicated they would fight off a diver trying to intervene, one promised he would use his 6 inch pig sticker knife on any self proclaimed good samaritans bound on removing him from a cave ( from a dangerous situation without his consent). It IS a bigger issue than it appears, on it's face.

This was a terribly tragic accident....this lady has loved ones that will suffer for the rest of their lives over this. As terrible as this was, it is also a wake up call---it is a miracle that we have not seen more accidents like this, in the high volume charter operations----I think each of us needs to evaluate whether there is a point at which our own involvement must occur. As this story explains right now, the only people that could actually KNOW enough to make a judgement call, would have been the boat crew. Each of us may have a future situation where we may see enough, to have a choice to make...about getting involved. That is what I am posting about--the if and when, and what we would do.

I would also thank kgallowaypa for the heroic efforts, and for trying so hard to save a life.

 

[Beiji]

Thank you, kgallowaypa, for your report and your efforts to help the deceased diver. What a tragedy. I have been particularly interested in this accident because I dove with this charter several days in March 2011, and my buddy went OOA on my first day on the first dive. On the day of the accident, was Mike the captain and Mercedes the DM?

 

[djcheburashka]

This thread is filled with uncoroborrated "facts" that trace back to a single or small number of sources. .

Allow me to add some *facts* you have not heard before. (i know everyone involved.) Many of you are not going to like this, and it is blunt, but its now necessary:

The diver was with a group led by Ari, who is a licensed instructor. It is inconceivable that Ari did not want to take such a large group, as she said -- Ari is engaged in very actively promoting her diving activities, taking as many people as possible on guided photography dives to demonstrate her skill at finding small items. She routinely attempts to get as many people to join her as possible.

A few months ago, I was present for an incident in which Ari lost an inexperienced student under her care, in the following circumstances:

1. She took a basic open water student on her first four dives into low visibility (3') high-current conditions, near a boat lane, in conditions that were utterly unsuitable for someone of the students limited experience.

2. I had the flag on that dive (why was I diving with Ari and a BOW student? Ari didn't tell me the person was her student until immediately before the dive). Ari and the student disappeared. I surfaced with the flag so they would be able to find me and not be too far away. Despite the fact that they were feet from an active boating lane and had no flag, they remained underwater for 20 minutes before surfacing (to look for the flag, or for anything else).

3. When they did surface - by this time I had returned to shore and the lifeguard had called rescue divers to conduct a search - Ari surfaced alone, and on the border of the boating lane. She had LOST the basic open water student. How? Because she was focused on macro photography and stopped paying attention. The student, as it turned out, had grabbed onto part of the landscape to protect herself from the current when she realized Ari was no longer nearby or paying attention.

4. After the dive, I took Ari aside and told her in blunt terms that if she kept diving like that she was going to kill somebody. I also told her that if I heard of any other incident remotely like it in the future, I would not keep my mouth shut. That is what I am doing now.

5. A few weeks later, I and another diver caught Ari illegally removing protected species from the same location. When confronted, she made up a series of lies about having one or another kind of license, but ultimately admitted that in fact she had none. Ari apparently has a business of selling these things to collectors. We tried to report her to Fish & Wildlife. Anyway, I am told that she was attempting to do the same thing on the dive when this latest incident occurred-presenting to the boat crew a license she claimed was hers (but was not) because she wanted to collect nudis, apparently for sale.

6. Apparently *nobody* on the boat saw the diver surface and doggie paddle--this story appears to have come entirely from Ari, and I'm told it has zero corroboration.

I will hypothesize that the reason the boat crew did not want to let Ari join the search, despite her insurance as an instructor, has something to do with what they thought, at the time, appeared to have taken place...


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---------- Post added February 26th, 2013 at 10:34 AM ----------

I will add one more thing, and then my own hypothesis:

The story about the diver returning to the boat and getting back in the water makes no sense. I'm told Ari is the only person who claims to have seen this. Anyway it makes no sense-divers on this boat are all given medallions to keep track of who is in the water, and Mercedes is religious about taking them back when a diver gets back on the boat (of course, they all need help especially if inexperienced).

The divers gear was found with the medallion attached.

It is inconceivable that the diver surfaced, gave her medallion up, and then got it back without the dive crew knowing, especially given her apparent lack of English. I therefore conclude that the "she surfaced and got back in" story is nonsense.

My hypothesis: her rental fins weren't fitting right, she started struggling with them, which led to them falling off and to her panic.

Nobody was watching her, or paying attention, and she (if she tried) could not get anyone's attention.

(And by the way: the claim that there were 45 divers on the boat is false. There were 30.)

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[ForScubaPurposesOnly]

I was also on the boat. For you who asked, Mike and Mercedes were on board. Mercedes is a fantastic DM and would not have EVER let her get back in the water and do a solo dive. All of these different stories are getting really confusing. I'm not sure anyone has a clear understanding of what happened. Also, the boat did not check her C-Card because the dive shop she was going out with on checked it prior to renting her gear.

 

[danvolker]

This thread is filled with uncoroborrated "facts" that trace back to a single or small number of sources. .

Allow me to add some *facts* you have not heard before. (i know everyone involved.) Many of you are not going to like this, and it is blunt, but its now necessary:

The diver was with a group led by Ari, who is a licensed instructor. It is inconceivable that Ari did not want to take such a large group, as she said -- Ari is engaged in very actively promoting her diving activities, taking as many people as possible on guided photography dives to demonstrate her skill at finding small items. She routinely attempts to get as many people to join her as possible.

A few months ago, I was present for an incident in which Ari lost an inexperienced student under her care, in the following circumstances:

1. She took a basic open water student on her first four dives into low visibility (3') high-current conditions, near a boat lane, in conditions that were utterly unsuitable for someone of the students limited experience.

2. I had the flag on that dive (why was I diving with Ari and a BOW student? Ari didn't tell me the person was her student until immediately before the dive). Ari and the student disappeared. I surfaced with the flag so they would be able to find me and not be too far away. Despite the fact that they were feet from an active boating lane and had no flag, they remained underwater for 20 minutes before surfacing (to look for the flag, or for anything else).

3. When they did surface - by this time I had returned to shore and the lifeguard had called rescue divers to conduct a search - Ari surfaced alone, and on the border of the boating lane. She had LOST the basic open water student. How? Because she was focused on macro photography and stopped paying attention. The student, as it turned out, had grabbed onto part of the landscape to protect herself from the current when she realized Ari was no longer nearby or paying attention.

4. After the dive, I took Ari aside and told her in blunt terms that if she kept diving like that she was going to kill somebody. I also told her that if I heard of any other incident remotely like it in the future, I would not keep my mouth shut. That is what I am doing now.

5. A few weeks later, I and another diver caught Ari illegally removing protected species from the same location. When confronted, she made up a series of lies about having one or another kind of license, but ultimately admitted that in fact she had none. Ari apparently has a business of selling these things to collectors. We tried to report her to Fish & Wildlife. Anyway, I am told that she was attempting to do the same thing on the dive when this latest incident occurred-presenting to the boat crew a license she claimed was hers (but was not) because she wanted to collect nudis, apparently for sale.

6. Apparently *nobody* on the boat saw the diver surface and doggie paddle--this story appears to have come entirely from Ari, and I'm told it has zero corroboration.

I will hypothesize that the reason the boat crew did not want to let Ari join the search, despite her insurance as an instructor, has something to do with what they thought, at the time, appeared to have taken place...


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---------- Post added February 26th, 2013 at 10:34 AM ----------

I will add one more thing, and then my own hypothesis:

The story about the diver returning to the boat and getting back in the water makes no sense. I'm told Ari is the only person who claims to have seen this. Anyway it makes no sense-divers on this boat are all given medallions to keep track of who is in the water, and Mercedes is religious about taking them back when a diver gets back on the boat (of course, they all need help especially if inexperienced).

The divers gear was found with the medallion attached.

It is inconceivable that the diver surfaced, gave her medallion up, and then got it back without the dive crew knowing, especially given her apparent lack of English. I therefore conclude that the "she surfaced and got back in" story is nonsense.

My hypothesis: her rental fins weren't fitting right, she started struggling with them, which led to them falling off and to her panic.

Nobody was watching her, or paying attention, and she (if she tried) could not get anyone's attention.

(And by the way: the claim that there were 45 divers on the boat is false. There were 30.)

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Yikes!!!!
Are you saying Ari had an arrangement with the girl that she would have been leading her in an instructional capacity ? She had indicated it was a separate buddy team that just wished to follow.....if there is more to it than this, I suspect you will be discussing this with her!

 

[ForScubaPurposesOnly]

This boat operation is actually really diligent and is always making sure that everyone is safe. I know for a fact that the captain and crew had their eyes on the water, looking for any signs of a distressed diver. They would not have let her do a solo dive, especially at her experience level. This was a freak accident and the boat company did everything they could to keep her safe. It was not their fault that a dive instructor certified her to dive when she clearly did not have a basic understanding of the equipment.

 

[kgallowaypa]

Dj nailed it and I think the two doctors deserve more credit than they received, they took primary care of the victim I just assisted but I do recall that ARI was next to the two Asian divers on the boat when we were underway to emerald reef I sat across from them on the starboard side of the cabin area. During rules also there was a lot of commotion and I think Mercedes had to shut everyone up at least 4 times to read out the regulations, unbelievable.

 

[DandyDon]

It was not their fault that a dive instructor certified her to dive when she clearly did not have a basic understanding of the equipment.

Do you know who certified her, where...?

 

[kgallowaypa]

Furthermore, person who ever mentioned the term "doggie paddle" was myself to the homicide detective during an open interview. The victim doggie paddled on the initial entry to the boat while I was on the line and was "doggie paddling" her way to the buoy line behind the boat with her mask on her forehead. THIS IS WHERE THIS STATEMENT CAME FROM

 

[ScubaSteve]

Just in case anybody cares......

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