Fatality Cabo San Lucas March 3

[Ayisha]

...It would be even better if DAN also got behind such a campaign to have analyzers on boats or at the shop such that the client could check the tank prior to use and verify it is CO-free...

That is an awesome idea. I had some communications with Dr Nicolas Bird almost three months ago commending DAN for teaming with Analox and providing a dozen inline CO Clear monitors in Coz and urging them to ensure they are installed with an automatic shutoff. I will contact Dr Bird again and ask him if DAN will consider advocating for portable CO analyzers to be available for customers to use at dive shops and dive boats.

May I suggest that as many people as possible contact DAN and ask them to advocate for dive shops to have inline CO monitors with automatic shutoffs and portable CO analyzers for the clients to use? They need to know that divers are concerned and there are viable solutions to prevent needless deaths and illnesses due to CO poisoning.

Edit: Ok, I sent my letter to DAN. Hopefully I get a response...

 

[DandyDon]

The idea of having a combination O2 & CO unit comes up a lot too. Reminds me of when answering machines were common, with or without portable phone combination - and I always kept them separate so I'd only have to replace one broken unit at a time rather than replacing both when one broke down out of warranty.

Some manufacturers do make units that can test for multiple gases - your choice, but they're kinda pricey I think. And I think that one of the reasons that Analox could quickly invent a portable & affordable CO analyzer for a relatively new market of unknown demand is that they could use the same housing as their portable O2 unit with a color change and a lot of the same design & operations. So to invent a new unit large enough for both sensors, targeted only to sell to those who want both, with an easy & dependable switch between the gases - or do you want to test both at once? It's a nice idea, but for now we're trying to get more divers carrying CO units, exposing previously ignored problems at varied destinations, and convincing the operators that they need to care more about quality too. I have no idea as to whether Analox is in the black or not on the CO unit, so I can't speculate about the likelihood of asking for a combo.

Asking the dive Ops to provide the CO analyzers is a nice idea, but I bought my Analox O2 analyzer because I didn't like the looks of some of the analyzers that some Ops used - if they had one, which should always be the case, but isn't. Who knows what they will come up with, if at all. There is a cheaper Italian model that was presented at the last two DEMA's, but I have never heard anything good about it - other than cheaper.

How often do we see SB members advising others that if they want to be confident that a O2 analyzer will be onboard, one that they will like - that they should own one? Pretty often...

Asking DAN to do more about the under recognized need is great, I certainly have - and I was surprised that the president took my call. He was very nice about it. A few months later a weak article on the subject was in the magazine, but maybe they're coming around - as it is a membership organization, the reason for all of their projects, good or bad.

I still don't understand why DAN is donating 10 Clear units to Quintana Roo shops as the need is much wider than that. Will these units be installed, operated, and maintained correctly - and not bypassed when the alarms say the air is over 3, 5, 10 ppm but they have a schedule to keep? Will other resorts see the need to have such units so they can compete as a destination, will they demand that DAN give them units too, or will they just keep ignoring the need?

A lot of divers don't own a BC, a reg, or a dive computer - but I think serious divers generally do. I wish my home dive bud made as many trips as I have, studied as much as I do, and was willing to share in the cost and upkeep of both O2 & CO analyzers - and if you have a regular dive bud, sharing like that would be a good idea. In my case, I want to know that every tank I dive is safe, so I own and carry my own. A few hundred bucks on top of several others...

 

[Graeme Tolton]

I dont imagine that a combination o2/co analyzer would be a whole lot different in design than a trimix analyzer. However, the price tag would likely be similar.
http://www.analox.net/proddetail.php?productid=96&ref=21

 

[koozemani]

I dont imagine that a combination o2/co analyzer would be a whole lot different in design than a trimix analyzer. However, the price tag would likely be similar.
ATA pro Trimix Analyzer: Analox - Looking after the air you breathe.

A similar price tag is the same as buying both units seperately. Not a horrible idea when you consider that you end up saving space when packing.

 

[nadwidny]

This is something that always comes up in any thread where CO is discussed. Oxygen analyzers are normally provided for the client's use free of charge. Why not a CO analyzer? Most of us would be willing to pay a little extra for our air fills for the use of a CO analyzer.

If you don't trust their air, why would you trust their analyzer?

 

[koozemani]

The idea of having a combination O2 & CO unit comes up a lot too. Reminds me of when answering machines were common, with or without portable phone combination - and I always kept them separate so I'd only have to replace one broken unit at a time rather than replacing both when one broke down out of warranty.

Some manufacturers do make units that can test for multiple gases - your choice, but they're kinda pricey I think. And I think that one of the reasons that Analox could quickly invent a portable & affordable CO analyzer for a relatively new market of unknown demand is that they could use the same housing as their portable O2 unit with a color change and a lot of the same design & operations. So to invent a new unit large enough for both sensors, targeted only to sell to those who want both, with an easy & dependable switch between the gases - or do you want to test both at once? It's a nice idea, but for now we're trying to get more divers carrying CO units, exposing previously ignored problems at varied destinations, and convincing the operators that they need to care more about quality too. I have no idea as to whether Analox is in the black or not on the CO unit, so I can't speculate about the likelihood of asking for a combo.

Asking the dive Ops to provide the CO analyzers is a nice idea, but I bought my Analox O2 analyzer because I didn't like the looks of some of the analyzers that some Ops used - if they had one, which should always be the case, but isn't. Who knows what they will come up with, if at all. There is a cheaper Italian model that was presented at the last two DEMA's, but I have never heard anything good about it - other than cheaper.

How often do we see SB members advising others that if they want to be confident that a O2 analyzer will be onboard, one that they will like - that they should own one? Pretty often...

Asking DAN to do more about the under recognized need is great, I certainly have - and I was surprised that the president took my call. He was very nice about it. A few months later a weak article on the subject was in the magazine, but maybe they're coming around - as it is a membership organization, the reason for all of their projects, good or bad.

I still don't understand why DAN is donating 10 Clear units to Quintana Roo shops as the need is much wider than that. Will these units be installed, operated, and maintained correctly - and not bypassed when the alarms say the air is over 3, 5, 10 ppm but they have a schedule to keep? Will other resorts see the need to have such units so they can compete as a destination, will they demand that DAN give them units too, or will they just keep ignoring the need?

A lot of divers don't own a BC, a reg, or a dive computer - but I think serious divers generally do. I wish my home dive bud made as many trips as I have, studied as much as I do, and was willing to share in the cost and upkeep of both O2 & CO analyzers - and if you have a regular dive bud, sharing like that would be a good idea. In my case, I want to know that every tank I dive is safe, so I own and carry my own. A few hundred bucks on top of several others...

No offense to Analox or any other manufacturer, but accidents/incidents like this(whether or not CO ends up being the culprit) is good for business. Which in turn creates a market for more, cheaper, and better products. If and when this happens, personal CO analyzers may become more mainstream and tragedies can be avoided.

A tenet of scuba diving is that divers are responsible for their own safety, why should this be any different? It still amounts to what is essentially a "trust me" dive.

 

[DandyDon]

A similar price tag is the same as buying both units seperately. Not a horrible idea when you consider that you end up saving space when packing.

Well, it looks larger than the Pelican box I use to carry both units, and cost almost $100 more than the 2 - but might be cheaper with a CO sensor instead of a He. Looks like a CO sensor is about $30 cheaper than a He sensor. Then there is that hose to keep up with.

 

[Ayisha]

Dr Bird, the Chief Medical Officer at DAN, has already replied back to me with a few questions regarding the accident. I replied with what has been reported in the media and sent him a link to this thread for the articles/news reports. He also said in the same email:

...We can try to contact the local shops in that area, but we don't have any regulatory authority with which to force compliance. The potential presence of CO is concerning as it indicates fossil fuel compressors, possibly faulty rings and inadequately separated intake and exhaust ports. As such, CO monitors are only one possible solution to a larger number of potential concerns.

I will be sharing your letter with other members of our team and we will look into this.

I replied back to him, along with some details that he asked for:

...I understand that inline CO monitors don't solve the problem entirely, but they can alert personnel to the presence of CO and potentially save lives, as well as change practices to prevent CO. Handheld CO analyzers (Analox makes a good one), like O2 analyzers, can alert the customer and tank filler to the presence of CO and again, save lives. If the customer does not walk out with or dive with a CO filled tank, that is the last line of defence against a silent killer.

Hopefully their meeting will be productive on this matter...

 

[Q1988]

Analox sells an aerosol can of "bump gas" (not calibration gas) which one can travel with in the checked baggage the same as you one can travel with a can of pressurized shaving cream in checked baggage. Because the pressure is less than 40 psig, the tank volume is small, and the CO concentration at 10 ppm is no more than dirty urban air, it is approved for passenger flight checked baggage travel. Otherwise as you suggest simply blowing gently into the monitor should produce a reading in the 1 to 3 ppm range if a non-smoker.
EII CO Bump Test Gas: Analox - Looking after the air you breathe.

One only calibrates the unit every 6 to 12 months but should verify the sensor is responding to CO prior to each dive trip. If not responding to an informal bump test using bump gas or breath then one would do a formal calibration. Analox offers these formal calibrations for a fee as do some of the dive shop CO analyzer vendors.

Swampdiver and Aggiediver
Not sure if you guys are properly comparing CO with CO2. They are not the same. So breathing into a CO (Carbon Monoxide) monitor or tester to check for your exhale gas CO level will not work.

 

[swamp diver]

Swampdiver and Aggiediver
Not sure if you guys are properly comparing CO with CO2. They are not the same. So breathing into a CO (Carbon Monoxide) monitor or tester to check for your exhale gas CO level will not work.

No we are definitely referring to CO and not CO2.

It has been known for about a decade now that the body produces gasotransmitters for very quick cell to cell messaging, faster than can be done by hormones or neurotransmitters. CO is involved in blood pressure regulatory control and interestingly along with gaseous NO and H2S (yes the body also makes hydrogen sulfide) it is involved in oxygen sensing in the carotid body.
Gaseous messengers in oxygen sensing. [J Mol Med (Berl). 2012] - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21498777
Carbon monoxide and hypertension. [J Hypertens. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

If some of our body's most important physiological inputs and outputs (BP, oxygen sensing, possibly glucose levels) are controlled by endogenous carbon monoxide likely at the picomole/liter concentration then one can understand why if we start adding external CO contamination from our breathing gas many of these critical systems may become impaired underwater depending on concentration.

Some of the insurance companies now use this breath CO knowledge to identify clandestine smokers from non-smokers when new life insurance policies are taken out.
Assessing recent smoking status by measuring exhale... [PLoS One. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

So yes a healthy non-smoking person who has not been exposed to any ambient air CO will have a breath CO reading in the 1 ppm to 3 ppm range. Smokers depending on the time interval from their last smoke will run in the 8 to 12 ppm range.

One can use this physiological knowledge to bump check a CO analyzer if a supply of bump gas is not on hand.