Fatal Record attempt in Garda Lake Italy

[BlueTrin]

Really? You put a scooter in pressure pot and if it doesn't implode at 600 atm you can fairly safely assume it'll withstand 300 atm. With your patient, you put him under a blunt knife and cut twice as deep to simulate the "unreal" test? Or what?

I am saying that after the tests you do in simulated environment you have to test it in real conditions at some point. I doubt that people test diving equipment without testing in either pressure chambers.

Are you saying that these scooters are never tested in real conditions before that a human use them at depth ?

I don’t get you and boulderjohn, nobody is saying you should test on humans first but at some point after your theoretical testing you need to do a real dive before claiming that it is safe until X meters.

Not testing this and claiming that your equipment is safe would be lying. Seems common sense to me ?

So instead of going through a medical trial you propose to sell medication as safe because it was tested theoretically ? I don’t know who is the most insane here.

 

[dmaziuk]

Are you saying that these scooters are never tested in real conditions before that a human use them at depth ?

Well, obviously. If, as you say, they have to be tested in real conditions by real human, then that human is the one who gets to ride an untested scooter at depth.

 

[BlueTrin]

Well, obviously. If, as you say, they have to be tested in real conditions by real human, then that human is the one who gets to ride an untested scooter at depth.

I think you must have misunderstood me.

It seems common sense to me that you do first your simulated tests but you need in the end to test something in real life before to claim that it works. Did I say otherwise ?

I’ll add a link explaining what is a medical trial (yes testing medication on patients is real, and sometimes even with the procedures in place, complications happen)
Clinical trials

First heart transplant, patient died after 18 days:
Chris Barnard Performs World's First Heart Transplant

Sometimes even after all the simulated testing you do, you cannot avoid unexpected things when you do the real thing.

 

[dmaziuk]

I understand that humour and ridicule are rather subjective things... The point was that while your position is reasonable in general, equating heart transplants to stress-testing a piece of electro-mecahnical equipment is pretty absurd.

How about a car analogy (my favourite kind): do you, at some point in your crash tests, replace the dummy with a real human?

 

[StefinSB]

Preach. Given the lack of information at this point, I think the community should refrain from jumping to subjective conclusions and spend the time in analysing the incident for objective conclusions instead.

What’s there to analyze beyond that it was an idiotic dive to start with? Testing scooters? Sure ..... RIP

 

[BlueTrin]

I understand that humour and ridicule are rather subjective things... The point was that while your position is reasonable in general, equating heart transplants to stress-testing a piece of electro-mecahnical equipment is pretty absurd.

How about a car analogy (my favourite kind): do you, at some point in your crash tests, replace the dummy with a real human?

This is a good analogy, I guess if you have good and standardised testing across all manufacturers which is proved to simulate the real conditions to prevent failures you can do this in a simulated environment.

 

[boulderjohn]

Are you saying that they never tested that this scooter could theoretically whistand this depth ? If that’s the case it is a bit silly from the diver to have attempted a record with equipment not made for the attempt.

I don't know if it was tested to that depth. I would hope so.

We got on scooters as a discussion point because of the post that was justifying doing a dive like that because of the benefit the experience provided to diving said that in the past such dives gave valuable information about scooter performance at depth. Some others suggested that you don't have to send a human to 300 meters to see if a scooter will withstand the pressure at 300 meters.

No other rationale for doing the dive was suggested, so that is where the discussion logically went.

 

[kelemvor]

In several recent threads in the Diving Medicine forum, it has been revealed that the St. Jude company has tested its pacemakers under pressure and determined that divers can expect them to work at least to 7 atmospheres (about 200 feet). It did not say how they were tested, although a clue can be found from the fact that they also said that the pacemakers did not fail at deeper depths, they just lacked the capacity to test them deeper.

From that, I infer that they did not test them by sending cardiac patients on dives to different depths to see at what point their pacemakers would fail. They could easily have sent those patients to 8 atmospheres or more.

I bet that depends on what's on the label. If it says the pacemaker is good to 7 atmospheres (about 200 feet) on the label then I suspect they're going to have to go through clinical trials before it's approved for sale. Don't all medical devices/medicines have to be tested on humans before they're approved?

 

[boulderjohn]

I bet that depends on what's on the label. If it says the pacemaker is good to 7 atmospheres (about 200 feet) on the label then I suspect they're going to have to go through clinical trials before it's approved for sale. Don't all medical devices/medicines have to be tested on humans before they're approved?

I don't know what those rules are; all I know is that St. Jude has an official statement about the ability of their pacemakers to be used under pressure.

 

[The Chairman]

If something is used as part of an expedition or world record, some brands will use this for marketing purposes, or will get some sales from it.

Most brands refuse to support this kind of ego driven glory grabbing because it's a given that the result will end in death. Who needs that negative publicity? NEDU has already been below 1000 ft on open circuit. THEY have almost unlimited resources to pull this kind of thing off while no private entity does. One of our users has done it, though he is not allowed to admit it publicly.