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Even I Cringed A Little

Discussion in 'Basic Scuba' started by Tropicalwolf, Jul 3, 2012.

  1. OldNSalty

    OldNSalty Contributor

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Just this side of paradise.
    I would say stop being a busy body, the guy might know more about diving then you do. If you don't want to dive with an un-certified diver then don't. No one would blame you. In my experience, the people I have dove with who didn't have a c-card were some great divers.

    Now I do understand if you are concerned about your friend but honestly he is 60, leave him alone. You are not going to change someones mind most likely.
  2. Scuba_Noob

    Scuba_Noob Contributor

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Victoria, BC
    I find it somewhat strange that so many people are supporting this diver, when a month back when there was this new hookah diver who wanted to dive without any training, there was an uproar on the thread. Sure, the hookah diver was quite arrogant and had a carefree attitude, but the situation wasn't so different.

    Tropicalwolf has not clarified his friend's experience and informal training other than "This friend has dove several times over the years", which sounds like he's not that experienced but he has a good argument. Sure, divers started without certification, and just because you have certification doesn't mean you're even an adequate diver. But at least certification guarantees some basic safety guidelines are covered.

    That's why I suggested some sort of talk about the safety aspects of diving, and I agree with lending the friend the open water book. Because you care about your friend, you want to make sure he has at least the minimum safety guidelines. No need to convince him to get certified. You're probably not going to change his mind about getting a cert, but at least you'll make sure he knows basic scuba safety standards.
  3. tadawson

    tadawson Contributor

    # of Dives: 50 - 99
    Location: Lewisville, Texas
    The key difference is "young and stupid" vs. "aged and very likely experienced". Once has a chance of being quite competent, the other pretty much none . . . .

    Also, at that age, this guy may have learned to dive before certs were widely available . . . does that mean that he learned less? Nope . . . just no pricey plastic . . .

    - Tim
  4. Wookie

    Wookie Curmudgeon Apprentice ScubaBoard Business Sponsor ScubaBoard Supporter

    Speaking strictly as an operator. We use certification cards strictly to spread the blame around. With the poor quality of instruction available these days, a cert card may mean that an incompetent instructor taught an incompetent diver. Having a certification, however, is a condition of carrying liability insurance, as is having a proper release properly filled out, regardless of the state or country you are in. Seeing a cert card to fill cylinders is not a condition of my liability insurance, however it may be a condition for a dive shop to be affiliated with an agency. I don't know why dive shops feel the need to be affiliated, but that's not the point of the thread. I'll fill anyone's cylinder with proof of hydro, which is the law. As far as certifications and VIP's and yada yada yada industry standards go, not so much.
    scubamama5, Rogersea and HowardE like this.
  5. HowardE

    HowardE Diver Staff Member

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: Boca Raton, Florida
    The difference here is this.

    You have a guy who HAS been diving... Successfully, as opposed to a guy who wants to dive... knows nothing about out... is cavalier, and probably won't get certified. (however... I didn't think that was patently unsafe either... nor did I think that taking an uncertified person diving with me was patently unsafe)

    Diving isn't hard.

    The assumption by many is that this person DOESN'T have a concept of diving or dive physiology, and that is the crux of the problem. People shouldn't assume that just because this person doesn't have a plastic card to show off means that this person also doesn't understand the physiology of diving.

    It's not like the concepts of Boyle, Dalton, and Haldane are secret works that you need to know the password to get.

    How about instead of assuming that this person has no dive education, why not assume that this person has a vast dive education, they just never got an official certification card from an instructor.

    So... if this diver is actually very experienced... wouldn't having a heart to heart to ensure they know the "minimum basic standards" be a serious insult?
  6. Scuba_Noob

    Scuba_Noob Contributor

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Victoria, BC
    HowardE, you are absolutely correct. If the diver in question is very experienced and has been diving for a while, then he's probably safe, and there's little need for any type of serious talk. I respect your thoughts (and experience) and agree with you.

    The main reason I proposed the talk is that based on the original post, we don't know his experience and what informal training he had. The fact that he's 60 years old and has dove several times doesn't say much about his scuba experience. Just to be safe, I recommended a confirmation about safety knowledge. Diving isn't hard, but it can be very dangerous. Without additional facts, I think it's just cautious to assume that he's inexperienced as opposed to assuming that he's very experienced.

    It might sound insulting at first to many experienced divers, but I see it as "better to be safe than sorry." I admit that I'd probably be a little slighted at first, but I'd understand that my friend would do it because he cared about me.

    Based on his own personal knowledge about his friend's scuba experience and knowledge, Tropicalwolf can sift through these comments and determine whether or not he should talk to his friend.
  7. jmneill

    jmneill Contributor

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: North Florida
    Yea, there's no comparison here. Some 15 year old trolling the boards (and if I remember correctly I don't think he ever came into possession of the hookah)
    VS. a sixty year old man who dives infrequently but in fairly benign conditions. I'm trying to picture lecturing a sixty year old diver on needing to get his c card and in my mind I just can't see that going over well, especially after he has already taken the position of not wanting to do exactly that.
    As for needing a cert to get air fills in Florida... Almost never in my experience.
    matts1w likes this.
  8. ZKY

    ZKY Minimalist ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Santa Rosa, California
    Just for kicks and grins I have a hypoythetical scenario question for you:

    As an operator, would you rather take a boatload of brand new certified divers out with shiney new cards?,
    Or a boatload of crusty old salts, none with under 1000 dives, none of them with any card at all, but all of them with years of local diving experience, and maybe some of them using double hoses with no BC's or SPG?
    Of course I realize liability would prevent you from taking the old salts out, but in a perfect world what you would prefer, which group it be.
    klauricella likes this.
  9. Wookie

    Wookie Curmudgeon Apprentice ScubaBoard Business Sponsor ScubaBoard Supporter

    Honestly, either group. The crusty old salts are usually better divers, but tend not to listen well because they already know everything about everything. The newer divers need more care, and are willing to accept it.
    ZKY likes this.
  10. DevonDiver

    DevonDiver N/A

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: Subic Bay, Philippines
    To be honest, I'd rather take the noobies.

    A local diveshop recently had a large group of 'old salts' (all certified though) and they were a P.I.T.A. for the DM who supervised them for a week. All had over 1000 dives... but that didn't stop them aimlessly running out of air, going unknowingly into deco (or not caring) without sufficient gas or planning..showing no team or buddy skills whatsoever...'chaos diving'... bomb-burst all over the place as individuals.

    I was asked if I wanted to lead them for a few days, as they wanted to do some 'proper' wreck penetrations (considered as demanding technical penetrations). None were qualified or equipped for that. None inspired me with confidence. So I refused, point-blank, even though that meant I lost money.

    It's easy to dream about the merits of 'old salts', but in my experience (the above being just one example) I've found many of them to be spectacularly uninspiring divers - with a lifetime of uncorrected bad habits and sloppy, over-confident mind-sets.

    Just saying...
    Wookie and scubamama5 like this.

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