Equipment for Adv Nitrox and Deco Proc

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

That's actually pretty funny.

I've been kicked in the face, bumped my head on things, been in all sorts of ripping current hanging on a line, never carried a spare mask and never lost one.

I started Adv Nitrox/Deco last month, brought a spare mask, was just overing and mine just fell off. Nobody touched it (at least nobody I saw). Nothing hit me. I was just hanging out and the buckle let loose. So I grabbed the spare and swapped it.

Go figure.

Now I'm wondering if it had some help. . . .

Terry

I can almost guarantee it had some help. I have a spare mask with me just about every dive. On the rare shallow/warm water dive I don't bother. But in the normal temps I dive (40s and 50s), it's always with me. Having my face in water that cold is NOT fun.
 
Now I'm wondering if it had some help. . . .

Terry

Different instructors and places. Here they generally hold up cards saying "give me your mask" etc. Other parts of the world (such as where i did mine) they dispensed with such niceties and just took it.

I spent the entire course absolutely paranoid whenever the instructor was out of sight because you and buddy just knew bad things would happen at some point.
I still cant forget that fraction of a second of dark shadow before the mask vanishes or that tiny movement out of corner of the eye before your air "runs out".

One dive i surfaced with no mask (or backup), 1 fin, an SMB line tangled and no stage as it had "fallen off", no primary timer and no gas. Simulated stop buddy breathing off (also on backup mask) buddies stage cylinder.

I must have been REALLY careless that dive to lose all that gear.......

I was also amazed how careless i was to (i) run out of gas and (ii) lose my mask 2 seconds later while trying to swim to my buddy for gas...


Anyway, the combined adv ean/deco proc course was easily the most enjoyable course ive ever done diving. Its a fantastic skills workout, really makes you re-evaluate ALL your diving techniques and once you get used to things like the above you'll emerge far more confident, far more competent and a much better diver. Id recommend it to anyone at all. If you have an instructor that will push you way outside your comfort zone you'll get a massive amount from the course.


As i said the type of problems range depending on instructors preference and local legislation etc but no matter what they choose, expect to be pushed.
 
I have a spare mask with me just about every dive. On the rare shallow/warm water dive I don't bother. But in the normal temps I dive (40s and 50s), it's always with me. Having my face in water that cold is NOT fun.

Once your face goes numb, it doesn't hurt anymore. . .

Terry
 
My experience in reading posts on Scubaboard (and other similar sites) is that the advice given by senior and more experienced divers usually tends to be cautionary and conservative, considering the experience range of the readers.
If a diver is considering tech, they are already in a fairly limited experience range, if they are not considering tech, it is a moot issue. Besides, if everyone keeps moving toward and erring on the side of excessive caution eventually no one will ever get in the water. And if we had always erred on the side of caution, we would never have started diving nitrox in the first place, as anyone diving in the 80s can tell you just exactly how evil nitrox was considered to be then.

It's also clear that my opinions are just that - opinions- and they are my own and do not reflect those of the owners of Scubaboard. Readers can apply whatever weight and credibility to them that they choose - it won't make them any more "right" or "wrong".

You are saying that you can use any reg (that has been originally O2 cleaned) on any cylinder (non-O2 cleaned) any number of hours, and then back on a 100% deco bottle.
No. You can take any reasonable example to an unreasonable extreme, as you just did. What I said was that using an O2 clean reg on a tank filled with non-O2 compatible air will not neccesarily make it any less clean than a reg used for several dives with only O2 compatible gasses. O2 clean is a matter degree and it stops being "o2 clean" once it leaves the clean room - if it was ever in a clean room to start with.

Obviously if the air source came from a compressor puking oil to the point you have visible mist, you have a serious issue and one tank would be more than enough to prompt a cleaning. On the other hand an awful lot of grade E air also has hydrocarbon content way below the limit allowed for grade E air and in fact much of it may even meet O2 compatible standards but not be labled that way. Check the most recent test report and make your own decisions.

In the same vein, if a shop's "O2 compatible" air is tested with new filters, it may not be "O2 compatible when you fill 3-6 months later. A test with new filters means absolutely nothing. So take it all with a grain of salt and put the effort in preventing O2 fires into smart operational practices designed to reduce the potential for creating an ignition source as in the end that is the only thing you really have control over.

I know the standard for Grade E air Hydrocarbon level is 5 mg/m3 and for Oxygen compatible air the standard is 0.1 mg/m3. That sounds like a big difference to me. If I use my deco reg say on a 50% mix with OCA for the number of hours I do deco (i.e. not so many), I realize it's not as clean as it started. However I can't see how it could be comparable to using it routinely with Grade E air and then switching it over. How much muck in the regulator is too much?
We are not talking about "using it routinely", we are talking about not getting hysterical about a reg being used on rare occasions with air and then "requiring" a new O2 cleaning.

How much muck is too much is exactly the point. If you don't provide an ignition source through thoughtful operation, you could coat the inside with 40 weight motor oil and still not have too much muck. On the other hand, if you slam the valve open on your O2 reg with 30 or so dives with only "o2 compatible" gasses, don't be surprised when it starts leaking due to a flash fire and charred o-rings.

That is the other point that gets missed. The vast majority of O2 fires inside a reg do not result in a detonation with reg parts, diver gore and goo flying everywhere - there is just not that much fuel and energy available. I have only heard of one reg that failed catastrophically due to an O2 fire and that resulted in a minor injury to a hand. If there are more they have not been well publicized.

What happens 99.9% of the time is a brief flash fire that chars the o-rings and causes some interesting leaks. A fire is usually not apparent until the reg is taken apart.
Excess hydrocarbon contaminants potentially cause two problems - they reduce the ignition temperature as the that temp is lower than the ignition temp for the o-rings (but again this process begins happening as soon as the reg leaves the clean room as 0.1 mg/m3e does not equal zero and is enough to introduce something that will ignite before the o-rings) and it provides slightly more fuel to feed the O2 fire for perhaps a small fraction of a second longer.

Again, the smart money on O2 fire prevention is on denying the reg, even an O2 clean one, an ignition source by pressurizing it as slowly as possible (turn the valve on very slowly and keep the purge depressed). That is basically the approach used with welding regs that by design pressurize slowly and do not result in compression heating, even though most seem to spend their lives in very greasy environments.

You'll note I do hold the line on O2 cleaning of tanks and that is an appropriately conservative view. Countless medical O2, aviator O2, and welding O2 tanks are in service that have never been O2 cleaned. Over time with various hydro tests and countless fills, hydrocarbon buildup (and rust in steel tanks) occurs even when filled only with O2 but they are never O2 cleaned and accident rates are very low. The critical difference is that the valves are designed to pressurize slowly with low flow rates and no hot spots. Scuba valves on the other hand are not O2 freindly and you need to keep the O2 clean tanks O2 clean to prevent contamination of the valves to reduce available fuel since it is more difficult to totally prevent an ignition source inside a scuba valve and manifold.
 
One dive i surfaced with no mask (or backup), 1 fin, an SMB line tangled and no stage as it had "fallen off", no primary timer and no gas. Simulated stop buddy breathing off (also on backup mask) buddies stage cylinder.

heh heh. I had just finished my course and was partnering with another guy to complete his last three dives.

On the hang he "lost" his fin, his mask, and then his backup mask. I looked over at the instructor who flipped me the bird. I returned it and passed my backup mask to my team mate.

Mistake. :D

I rapidly started to loose things, ending the dive fin less and mask less.

The instructor was festooned with four extra masks and fins.

:rofl3:
 
Does sound familiar. Some of the training dives resembled underwater muggings.
 
I've taken both, about two years apart (as well as Cavern training with similar configurations). I strongly urge you to consider purchasing your own gear, including the tanks with your instructor's assistance. The two years I spent diving that gear like crazy every chance I got, helped me immensely when I took deco procedures. The gear just has to be second nature and unless you own it and can tailor it to you and the conditions, I think you will be hindered.
 
First, I Don't use an STA, so there's no problem converting my BP to doubles... very easy actually.

I'm interested in Adv nitrox and Deco for the experience and understanding of how the gasses affect human physiology. I will also be taking a hyperbaric medicine course at Duke in Fall. I was a paramedic in college, so knowledge of emergency procedures in varied circumstances and stress levels is something I have no problem with.

I'll get myself a second reg (M25/S600) and an 02 clean reg.... possibly OMS. I won't be buying tanks or manifolds, but might get a wing after the class if I really like it.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Cheers,
D

I myself would not feel comfortable going into deco with rented gear on.:)
 
My instructor has told me that he once cracked his manifold (primary side) in a cave. He isolated his tanks, breathed off of the leaking tank until it was empty, while making his way back out, then went to the second tank & breathed it down all the way & still had about 75- 100ft to go to get to his stage bottle. He said it was one of the times he didn't think he was going to make it out alive. That's the only case I've heard of that. But it was also technical diving, not open water.

The instructor horror stories that I have heard normally involve silt-outs within shipwrecks. Not cracked manifolds. Great story though!
 
Some agencies indeed teach that: usable gas= (total volume-RB)*rule of x.

Where X can be rule of 1/3, or 1/2 or something else depending on the situation and dive. I don't believe any agencies outside the ones that teach fundies or one of it's derivatives teach this.

Isn't it best just to remember to turn your dive after using 1/3 of your back-gas mix?

This leaves the remaining 2/3 for a full egression for yourself, or else to help a buddy back as well.

There are a lot of things that can go wrong during a dive. For example, your first deco bottle could fail, for whatever reason as well. And in that case your reserve 1/3 would get you back up to your next deco bottle.

I would not make a rock bottom calculation too aggressively. Anything can happen.

And since this is amateur diving, then you are pretty much diving with other amateurs, therefore you are pretty much on your own, as far as reliability goes.
 

Back
Top Bottom