Edd Sorenson saves ow diver in a cave

[Zippsy]

I wish I had my OW book from 1995. I simply can't remember if there was anything in there about overhead environment. And, if overhead environment wasn't explained, I wouldn't have known what it meant, anyway.
but, my book is long gone, lost in the divorce vacuum. Oh, well.

Judging by what was in the 1988 version and the manuals used since 2005, I am sure it had rather strong language in the 1995 version. It would have explained that without additional training and equipment, that you have a good chance of dying if you go into a cave, cavern, wreck, etc, where there is no direct access straight up to the surface. Perhaps the instructor did not stress it enough but I am sure that manual was clear.

 

[Hawkwood]

Okay, how much time does an Instructor have to spend beating on students what not to do. A list could be very long.

As I tell my students, the definition of "Open Water" is not that bad movie by the same name, but it means a direct ascent to the surface with no obstruction - be it a physical barrier or a physiological need. That means no decompression obligation, no wreck penetration, no caves, no caverns, no "swim throughs" (sorry but that fits the definition), etc.

 

[Rick Murchison]

... no "swim throughs" (sorry but that fits the definition), etc.

Have to disagree with you on this one, because ultimately it's a position that can't remain credible. Let's take a sunken truss bridge span, for example. The truss structure above the roadway is technically something overhead, but no one would suggest it forms an overhead environment... the trusses are only a couple feet wide and with huge holes between them. Open water divers swim around under these all day, every day. Given that, the question becomes "how wide and under what conditions does something over your head become an 'overhead'?" When students leave the nest, they are going to be confronted with common diving practices that include swim-throughs for open water divers just about anywhere in the world they go. They need a practical guide to separate the true swim-through's that provide that unobstructed direct ascent to the surface from those that don't. A straight through, short, unobstructed swim under a bridge truss or oil rig cross-support or the ceiling of a tug wheelhouse or a big hole through a reef that satisfy the direct unobstructed swim to the surface shouldn't be verboten. I can't think of one single incident involving a true swim-through (diver can see the exit before entering, can swim the route from the entrance through the exit without obstruction, total distance from entrance to surface less than 130'), ever. All the incidents I know of violate at least one of those rules. And the most seductive, highly fatal scenarios for OW divers almost always involve "just having a look" inside a room or cavern.
Rick

 

[Hawkwood]

Rick,

I really don't disagree with you, hence my "qualifier"(?). I was remiss in defining a "swim through" in this circumstance.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

PADI has a cave course and it has a very detailed course outline, the most detailed I have seen. There are very few PADI cave instructors, however.

A quick browse through the technical/wreck/cave/solo forums soon illuminates...

"It will never happen to them..."

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I think that PADi are still very cautious of anything 'overhead related' - hence the lack of standardized penetration courses for cave or wreck. It's a glaring 'black hole' in their syllabus - and there has to be a policy reason behind that.

 

[jkaterenchuk]

There is a mountain in PA that used to have a sign saying how many people died on that road. Did little good. I always thought a better idea would have been to post the photos of the victims the way they found them. Would have made much more of an impact.

And it goes directly back to how they were warned in their classes. If they were at all. I show at a minimum the Deceptive video. My OW instructor had never heard of it. Some seem afraid to focus on what can really happen and the risks for fear of scaring off new divers. A scared off new diver is better than a dead one.

Jim

It does not seem to make a difference what the venue is. A sign warning not to go up the mountain. A sign warning not to enter a cave. Or my favorite...diving in the open ocean without a PLB. It seems that "it happens to others but not to me" is a view shared by a vast majority of people. So the best we can do is to keep reminding people of the hazard and the potential stupid decision. We will never know how many might have listened and decided not to put themselves in a potentially fatal situation.

People continue to get lost at sea....some are found...some are not....and some are never reported here on the board....I continue to reference my "lost at sea" thread and the need to carry a PLB for that type of diving.

John

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PADI has a cave course and it has a very detailed course outline, the most detailed I have seen. There are very few PADI cave instructors, however.

I wonder what the check-in people at Ginny would think if I showed a PADI Cave Diver cert card?

I am Cave certified thru ANDI and it seems everytime I check in they comment that they have never seen a ANDI Cave Cert card. Some even comment they have never heard of ANDI. Usually, they check with some others and come to the conclussion that I am OK to go diving.

In some other parts of the world outside the planet we call Florida people would have a similar comment if they saw a NACD or NSS-CDS Cave cert card.

John

 

[Phreatic Fanatic]

I wonder what the check-in people at Ginny would think if I showed a PADI Cave Diver cert card?

Shouldn't be a problem; they have seen them before.

 

[DevonDiver]

PADI has a cave course and it has a very detailed course outline, the most detailed I have seen. There are very few PADI cave instructors, however.

I specifically stated "standardized". The existing wreck course is a distinctive specialty, I believe (?)

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I specifically stated "standardized". The existing wreck course is a distinctive specialty, I believe (?)

The PADI cave is a distinctive specialty also.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think that PADi are still very cautious of anything 'overhead related' - hence the lack of standardized penetration courses for cave or wreck. It's a glaring 'black hole' in their syllabus - and there has to be a policy reason behind that.

PADI has a cave course and it has a very detailed course outline, the most detailed I have seen. There are very few PADI cave instructors, however.

I wonder what the check-in people at Ginny would think if I showed a PADI Cave Diver cert card?

Smile and let you in, because the odds are you got most of your training for it there, probably from one of the instructors who are there a few times a week.

I finished my PADI cave diving certification at Ginny, the same day (and from the same instructor) as my NSS-CDS certification. I am quite sure the training I received satisfied the requirements of both agencies.

I think the reason you don't see clearly defined definitions in the recreational side for PADI is due to shifting thinking over the years. PADI had a full cave diving course in 1975, overseen primarily by Sheck Exley and the same Jim Wyatt who posted above. They then pulled the course because of the perceived danger. The fact that they let Jim and others resurrect the course a third of a century later shows a shift in thinking, consistent with their recent decision to go into technical diving. When you get to full caverns and caves, the definitions are clear. The problem is what comes in between OW and cavern, and Rick Murchison outlined the problem above. Swimming under a small arch is safe for any diver, but for a brief instant it is an overhead environment. Some wrecks are so open and sanitized that I see no problems with an OW diver swimming through them. Where is the line drawn? Lynne (TSandM) started a great thread on the topic a month or so ago.