Dumpable weight vs trim

[DiveClimbRide]

I won't address what has already been well-covered, but I am also very leg-heavy and (after trying multiple options) I use hard weights tied with bungee cord. It is very secure, can be adjusted slightly, and I can cut one or both free with a flick of my dive knife if need be (although that is very far down the contingency tree, so it's not like I have practiced it).

I use the same method

 

[Barnaby'sDad]

Good points. Maybe these ideas should be presented when listing buoyant ascent as a last ditch way up. In your intentional overweighted scenario (even in a river and not down 100'), you still have to have tank air to add some to ascend. Of course you probably have at least some in your BC which would expand-- if you can kick hard enough to get started with the extra weight.
I know previous posts are talking about divers who are properly weighted. But this scenario may be one reason "bouyant ascent" has not been eliminated?

Yes. The general assumption is that you’re going to have some gas in your BC. However, if you have your wing sufficiently deflated to keep you on the river bottom, it isn’t going to help you ascend, as half the issue is just establishing enough lift to depart the river bottom. That and keep in mind that you’ll likely be ascending with one pound or more of additional weight in the form of fossil goodies. That is part of the dive pre-brief...if you run into an issue...drop the bag. There’s nothing in it worth dying for.

I had to add a decent amount of gas to the wing to start my ascent. You also have to keep your eyes glued to your depth gauge, as you have no other visual indication that you’re actually ascending until you get up to about 10’ and you start to get some ambient lighting.

The scenario above plus a BC/wing failure, I would classify as an extreme outlier and departure from what a typical diver would consider to be best practices. It’s also not uncommon for divers to start out overweighted during OW class and for vacation dive operators to stuff pockets full of weights (just to make sure the diver can descend), so for those reasons...I would say that the idea of drop weights should not be entirely discarded.

 

[boulderjohn]

In my discussions (arguments) with PADI about ascent scenarios, what they told me in essence is that the buoyant ascent is used when you are not sure you can get to the surface on your own. They have given rule-of-thumb estimates about specific depths where you would go from CESA to buoyant, but it really comes down to your judgment. It used to be common for some training groups to require CESA's from 100 feet, although I don't think anyone does that now. Buoyant ascents have been done from 300 feet in training for submarine escapes.

In technical diving, steel doubles can be a problem because of their weight, and it is common to require redundant buoyancy when using them.

 

[TMHeimer]

Yes. The general assumption is that you’re going to have some gas in your BC. However, if you have your wing sufficiently deflated to keep you on the river bottom, it isn’t going to help you ascend, as half the issue is just establishing enough lift to depart the river bottom. That and keep in mind that you’ll likely be ascending with one pound or more of additional weight in the form of fossil goodies. That is part of the dive pre-brief...if you run into an issue...drop the bag. There’s nothing in it worth dying for.

I had to add a decent amount of gas to the wing to start my ascent. You also have to keep your eyes glued to your depth gauge, as you have no other visual indication that you’re actually ascending until you get up to about 10’ and you start to get some ambient lighting.

The scenario above plus a BC/wing failure, I would classify as an extreme outlier and departure from what a typical diver would consider to be best practices. It’s also not uncommon for divers to start out overweighted during OW class and for vacation dive operators to stuff pockets full of weights (just to make sure the diver can descend), so for those reasons...I would say that the idea of drop weights should not be entirely discarded.

Yeah I agree. I also like your first idea that it simply can give any diver a bit more peace of mind knowing they can drop weights and pop up fast-- again, as a last ditch option.
Whether properly or overweighted, I am going on the assumption that you are deep and completely out of air.
I find that on rare occasions I'm heavier with a bag full of shells. But again, you adjust for that-- these are not desparate situations where dropping weights ever comes into play.

 

[d^2b]

Yeah I agree. I also like your first idea that it simply can give any diver a bit more peace of mind knowing they can drop weights and pop up fast-- again, as a last ditch option.

I decided to go with some quick release ditchable weight on my new BP+W rig as much for the peace of mind of my regular buddy as for my own. They dive a standard weight integrated jacket, and I liked the idea of having roughly equivalent releases. Not that I have ever needed to release my buddy's weights. Quite the opposite in fact, I've caught weight and buddy from time to time and helped re-attach them. I hope that my dive rite pockets don't do that on me.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I'm curious, for those "in favor" of ditching weights in buoyancy ascents, have any of you tried to see if you were diving a balanced rig? I.e., go down to maximum depth that you would dive, empty your wing/BCD/dry suit, and be able to ascend?

It seems to be a common sense thing to try. One reason why I added it to my open water course.

 

[CT-Rich]

Ditchable weight is a form of redundancy. With a full tank at the beginning of the dive you are negatively buoyant. A BCD failure that makes staying at the surface important is not unheard of. If you are not willing to figure out how to guarantee positive buoyancy at any point during a dive, you are being sloppy. If you can’t imagine a situation where ditching 5kg of lead wouldn’t make you safer, it is because you lack imagination.

Plenty of divers make it to the surface and then drown and sink. If you need the weight (with an 8mm wetsuit it sounds reasonable) make a plan on how to get rid of it, easily.

 

[boulderjohn]

I'm curious, for those "in favor" of ditching weights in buoyancy ascents, have any of you tried to see if you were diving a balanced rig? I.e., go down to maximum depth that you would dive, empty your wing/BCD/dry suit, and be able to ascend?

It seems to be a common sense thing to try. One reason why I added it to my open water course.

I think the decision to go to a buoyant ascent would usually involve the potential for not being able to get there through your own power because you might lack that power for some reason. I would go buoyant immediately, for example, if I felt I were about to pass out.

In all things we do in life, there is an element of risk. Staying in bed perpetually risks bedsores. In preparation for risks, we have to weigh the potential for a bad event, the seriousness of that bad event, and the quality of the options for dealing with it. For dealing with the potential for running out of air during a recreational dive with a buddy, I would say that my experience makes running out of air very unlikely, but it is pretty darned serious if I do, so I make sure my buddies are nearby with alternate air sources and, as a backup, I am confident I can do a CESA from any recreational depth.

When I am on a technical dive with my Worthington LP 108 doubles (think anvils with air pockets), the risk of a loss of bladder is remote (but reasonably possible), and the effects would be catastrophic (I cannot swim those puppies up on my own), so I will not dive without redundant buoyancy.

On a recreational dive with a Worthington LP 85 and a 5mm wetsuit with no weights, I can swim it up with relative ease on an empty bladder, so the loss of a bladder does not concern me. But what if I have a loss of a bladder while simultaneously having a heart attack and losing consciousness? Sorry, that combination is too far remote for me to worry about it.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I think the decision to go to a buoyant ascent would usually involve the potential for not being able to get there through your own power because you might lack that power for some reason. I would go buoyant immediately, for example, if I felt I were about to pass out.

In all things we do in life, there is an element of risk. Staying in bed perpetually risks bedsores. In preparation for risks, we have to weigh the potential for a bad event, the seriousness of that bad event, and the quality of the options for dealing with it. For dealing with the potential for running out of air during a recreational dive with a buddy, I would say that my experience makes running out of air very unlikely, but it is pretty darned serious if I do, so I make sure my buddies are nearby with alternate air sources and, as a backup, I am confident I can do a CESA from any recreational depth.

When I am on a technical dive with my Worthington LP 108 doubles (think anvils with air pockets), the risk of a loss of bladder is remote (but reasonably possible), and the effects would be catastrophic (I cannot swim those puppies up on my own), so I will not dive without redundant buoyancy.

On a recreational dive with a Worthington LP 85 and a 5mm wetsuit with no weights, I can swim it up with relative ease on an empty bladder, so the loss of a bladder does not concern me. But what if I have a loss of a bladder while simultaneously having a heart attack and losing consciousness? Sorry, that combination is too far remote for me to worry about it.

Would it be too outlandish to suggest for the recreational diver without redundancy in buoyancy to ditch their scuba kit at the surface?

The problem I have with the emergency buoyancy ascent with agencies that don't have students practice it is that will they actually be able to perform the skill if necessary?

I believe in focusing on (a) having a configuration where the diver can get to the surface without ditching. (b) ditching at the surface to remain there. Now I teach in cold water, so there is redundancy. The probability of both the dry suit and wing failing, is as you said, basically nil.

 

[TMHeimer]

John, Thanks for the insight re PADI's thoughts on buoyant/CESA, etc. It is pretty much what is written in my '05 OW manual, so I apologize for not looking that up.
CT- Yes, with my 7 mil farmer john and (NOT overweighted) 42 pounds, I can release 20 pounds of it easily if needed.
wetb4-- Yes it is a common sense thing to try. Guess I never have due to above. I will empty the BC this week and see if I can do it from 20' or so.