There is a strong case for them needing the skills and fitness nonetheless.
Dumbing down of scuba certification courses (PADI) - what have we missed?
- Thread starter kathydee
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
There is a strong case for them needing the skills and fitness nonetheless.
Interesting comparison to what has been mentioned here versus some of what was discussed in our class tonight.
Someone criticized the omission of "Buddy Breathing" from the PADI OW course. Our instructor, who has been diving in one form or another since the 1940s (so even some of you old timers would seem a whippersnapper to him), mentioned this. His comment tonight was that with modern regulator set-ups that include the octo, Buddy Breathing is not only obsolete, but was found historically to be as much problem as solution.
As he pointed out, if two divers were regular dive buddies that worked together a lot, and practiced skills such as Buddy Breathing regularly before the need arose, it could work out well. However, what he stated is that when one diver was stressed from being out of air, he wasn't always inclined to share the regulator back with the buddy. This was particularly the case with dive buddies who weren't well-familiar with each other.
Back in the days of Sea Hunt, when scuba units had only the one second stage regulator, Buddy Breathing might be the only option if an unexpected out of air situation occured too deep for a safe ascent.
I have to ask, though, since I am still very new to this - how many divers today are diving without the octo? I think every photo I've seen in the magazines and every video I've watched of contemporary divers shows the typical set-up with the two hoses to the right for the two second stage regulators, the hose on the left for the low-pressure inflator, and either the hose for the SPG or (presumably) the wireless connection for the dive computer. For a situation to require Buddy Breathing with the modern set-up, Diver 'A' would have to suffer an out-of-air situation, and Diver 'B' would have to simultaneously suffer a second-stage failure on either the primary or the octo.
Serious question here; I'm not asking it rhetorically expecting you to answer it the way I want:
Is the omission of Buddy Breathing from the training truly a detriment to diver safety? Or is Buddy Breathing an anachronistic holdover from an earlier era of diving?
One other honest question:
I keep seeing comments regarding divers trained for nothing more than following a dive master around. Are the people writing this thinking of the very basic Scuba Diver course, which does limit the student to a maximum 40' depth and only diving with an instructor or dive master, or are they projecting this same limitation/mentality onto PADI Open Water courses? Perhaps I'm reading the PADI materials incorrectly, but the OW course I'm in doesn't sound at all like it's going to limit me to only diving when I have an instructor or dive master around to hold my hand through the whole experience.
To be honest, a lot of this discussion sounds remarkably like, "You kids these days have it so easy! Why, when I was learning scuba, we had to swim ten miles to our cert dives, against the current, both ways, in fifty foot surf, surrounded by sharks! We didn't have no fancy-schmancy BCD's, either! We had to make our own flotation with old bleach bottles, and we were mighty glad to have 'em!"
If we take this kind of logic to the extreme, then you'd better leave the car at home and forego the airliner, because Grandpa crossed this great country with nothing but a wooden wagon and a couple of oxen, and he was mighty glad to have 'em.
Someone criticized the omission of "Buddy Breathing" from the PADI OW course. Our instructor, who has been diving in one form or another since the 1940s (so even some of you old timers would seem a whippersnapper to him), mentioned this. His comment tonight was that with modern regulator set-ups that include the octo, Buddy Breathing is not only obsolete, but was found historically to be as much problem as solution.
As he pointed out, if two divers were regular dive buddies that worked together a lot, and practiced skills such as Buddy Breathing regularly before the need arose, it could work out well. However, what he stated is that when one diver was stressed from being out of air, he wasn't always inclined to share the regulator back with the buddy. This was particularly the case with dive buddies who weren't well-familiar with each other.
Back in the days of Sea Hunt, when scuba units had only the one second stage regulator, Buddy Breathing might be the only option if an unexpected out of air situation occured too deep for a safe ascent.
I have to ask, though, since I am still very new to this - how many divers today are diving without the octo? I think every photo I've seen in the magazines and every video I've watched of contemporary divers shows the typical set-up with the two hoses to the right for the two second stage regulators, the hose on the left for the low-pressure inflator, and either the hose for the SPG or (presumably) the wireless connection for the dive computer. For a situation to require Buddy Breathing with the modern set-up, Diver 'A' would have to suffer an out-of-air situation, and Diver 'B' would have to simultaneously suffer a second-stage failure on either the primary or the octo.
Serious question here; I'm not asking it rhetorically expecting you to answer it the way I want:
Is the omission of Buddy Breathing from the training truly a detriment to diver safety? Or is Buddy Breathing an anachronistic holdover from an earlier era of diving?
One other honest question:
I keep seeing comments regarding divers trained for nothing more than following a dive master around. Are the people writing this thinking of the very basic Scuba Diver course, which does limit the student to a maximum 40' depth and only diving with an instructor or dive master, or are they projecting this same limitation/mentality onto PADI Open Water courses? Perhaps I'm reading the PADI materials incorrectly, but the OW course I'm in doesn't sound at all like it's going to limit me to only diving when I have an instructor or dive master around to hold my hand through the whole experience.
To be honest, a lot of this discussion sounds remarkably like, "You kids these days have it so easy! Why, when I was learning scuba, we had to swim ten miles to our cert dives, against the current, both ways, in fifty foot surf, surrounded by sharks! We didn't have no fancy-schmancy BCD's, either! We had to make our own flotation with old bleach bottles, and we were mighty glad to have 'em!"
If we take this kind of logic to the extreme, then you'd better leave the car at home and forego the airliner, because Grandpa crossed this great country with nothing but a wooden wagon and a couple of oxen, and he was mighty glad to have 'em.
I´m not "older" but I feel I can answer anyway...
The point others will make is propably that if you are well-trained there´d be no reason to be stressed from being OOA or from having to buddy-breathe...Buddy breathing has been a component of all my technical courses (taken post 2000), where despite having far more options than rec-divers, it is still taught/practiced...
No, their talking about OW-divers, because regardless of certification limits, following a DM around in tropical waters is the limit of what a lot of OW-divers want/feel comfortable doing...and some would argue that it is all their training is good for...
Gen San Chris
Contributor
I think that now, in this day and age, the term Recreational Diver says it all! The Padi Open Water Course is designed for students as young as 10 years old and above thus allowing full families to dive together for recreation and fun!
The courses are also broken down into different levels as many people do not have the time to indulge in a long and protracted training!
If they can take a few days to complete one course and get due recognition for it before going further probably gets more people into diving than a long military type of adventure which is not good for all!
The courses are also broken down into different levels as many people do not have the time to indulge in a long and protracted training!
If they can take a few days to complete one course and get due recognition for it before going further probably gets more people into diving than a long military type of adventure which is not good for all!
Okay, so what they are criticizing is people's perception of their training based NOT on what is actually trained, but rather on how some people feel after their training.
So, in this case, we should also criticize Trek bicycles because, despite making some absolutely awesome bikes, SOME people who buy them don't feel comfortable doing anything besides a slow, short, ride around the block?
Come on, people. It ain't the training; it's how much effort some people are willing to make to get in both shape and practice to do more. There have been comments about new divers buying stuff that ends up on eBay because they don't keep up with it. So? Once again, why do you expect diving to be any different than bicycling, for example? Have you looked at how many expensive bicycles end up collecting dust or being sold for a fraction of the original cost because the novelty wore off when the buyer figured out he wasn't going to be Lance Armstrong in a weekend?
How many musical instruments go that same route, because learning to play is a discipline that requires more than a few minutes with a cheap DVD to learn? A flute teacher can give you the basics of playing the flute in a short time, but to master it requires long hours of practice and study. Sir James Galway didn't get where he did by taking one semester of flute in elementary school. He got the basics and then kept learning and working.
For every Lance Armstrong and James Galway out there, there are literally millions who never take the discipline beyond the most basic steps. Why do we expect any different from diving? Why do we blame the training for the overall short attention span of our modern culture?
Why don't we focus instead on those that take the basic courses and then continue to pursue the discipline? Rather than lament the marginally interested that experiment and then move on to something else, why don't we celebrate those whose interest and imaginations are fired up by that first course, and who then go on to more advanced diving?
What we see often depends most on what we choose to see. So far, I haven't read a bit of empirical statistics in this discussion indicating that diving has become a disproportionately more dangerous sport because of the supposed "inadequate" training. I've read a lot of conjecture and a lot of curmudgeonism (and believe me, I recognize it because I'm quite capable of it myself), but not a lot of cold, hard, data.
So, in this case, we should also criticize Trek bicycles because, despite making some absolutely awesome bikes, SOME people who buy them don't feel comfortable doing anything besides a slow, short, ride around the block?
Come on, people. It ain't the training; it's how much effort some people are willing to make to get in both shape and practice to do more. There have been comments about new divers buying stuff that ends up on eBay because they don't keep up with it. So? Once again, why do you expect diving to be any different than bicycling, for example? Have you looked at how many expensive bicycles end up collecting dust or being sold for a fraction of the original cost because the novelty wore off when the buyer figured out he wasn't going to be Lance Armstrong in a weekend?
How many musical instruments go that same route, because learning to play is a discipline that requires more than a few minutes with a cheap DVD to learn? A flute teacher can give you the basics of playing the flute in a short time, but to master it requires long hours of practice and study. Sir James Galway didn't get where he did by taking one semester of flute in elementary school. He got the basics and then kept learning and working.
For every Lance Armstrong and James Galway out there, there are literally millions who never take the discipline beyond the most basic steps. Why do we expect any different from diving? Why do we blame the training for the overall short attention span of our modern culture?
Why don't we focus instead on those that take the basic courses and then continue to pursue the discipline? Rather than lament the marginally interested that experiment and then move on to something else, why don't we celebrate those whose interest and imaginations are fired up by that first course, and who then go on to more advanced diving?
What we see often depends most on what we choose to see. So far, I haven't read a bit of empirical statistics in this discussion indicating that diving has become a disproportionately more dangerous sport because of the supposed "inadequate" training. I've read a lot of conjecture and a lot of curmudgeonism (and believe me, I recognize it because I'm quite capable of it myself), but not a lot of cold, hard, data.
- Messages
- 903
- Reaction score
- 1
- # of dives
- I'm a Fish!
Hi Everyone,
The above really sums up today's diver training. In the "Good Old Days" the skills you learned during your course are basically the same that you will learn if you combine today's OW, AOW and Rescue courses along with the Deep Diver Specialty. Plus, we learned Decompression techniques, as we were certified to 132 FSW from the start, and Deco was just another part of diving. "No Decompression Diving" was unheard of. All dives involve decompression in one form or another (your ascent is part of the deco process, so even if you don't need to do a mandatory deco stop, you are still involved in decompression)
With the advent of the safe second (octopus) buddy breathing is considered by many to obsolete. Like all skills, unless it is practiced on a continuous basis, it is lost pretty quickly, and using it unpracticed can cause a situation to go from SNAFU to FUBAR real fast. BB is a good confidence builder during training however. It teaches you control in a stressful situation and how to work with your buddy in a less than ideal situation. Another reality is that if BB is your out of air plan, is the person assigned as your buddy on the boat even trained in it? It's not something that can be taught in a few minutes. Chances are excellent they will not be. Remember, this is RECREATIONAL diving.
I think the biggest problem with today's training is the lack of time spent in training. Dive Centers need to train as many students as possible in order to make profits. Thus many divers are trained in as little as 10 - 15 hours for classroom, pool AND open water. While they may have the basic skills down, they are not competent divers by any means. The modern teaching style intends for you to jump right into the next course, in this case AOW for additional training and diving. Remember, the "Good Old Days" training was the combination of OW, AOW and Rescue courses along with the Deep Diver Specialty plus Deco. When you complete ALL of these in modern courses, then you are a well trained diver that should be competent with your abilities and skills. You should be (in theory anyways) be the equivilent of one of the "Old School" divers coming out of their single course. You will in fact have more actual OW experience than they would have gotten, so you actually a leg up on them. It's just now done over multiple courses rather than one long one.
Safe Diving,
George
Hoomi:
PADI is far from the only guilty party in this regard. Just about everyone made buddy breathing optional because of a misguided fear of AIDS.
Hoomi:
Buddy breathing is extremely easy. The only way people have problems with this skill is if it's taught poorly or not at all.
Hoomi:
I've never seen this to be the case. I've rescued several OOA divers and I've rescued several panicked divers. I've yet to even see a panicked OOA diver.
Hoomi:
No. The omission of buddy breathing is not in itself a serious safety concern. Most divers do have an octo. Usually, that octo even works. Sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, the combination of malfunctioning gear combined with the inability to buddy breathe, it can be a serious safety problem. I never recommend buddy breathing as a first choice, but it's nice to have as a second choice. It beats the hell out of an ESA.
Hoomi:
I'm referring to the PADI Open Water course. You are correct in your reading that you are not limited to following a DM around. OTOH, after getting their PADI OW C-card, most are not prepared for anything more than that and they all should be better prepared that that.
Hoomi:
You've obviously not been reading what's been available for you to read. This type of comment shows you are either clueless about the class we are discussing or ignoring the facts. We are not upset they you have it easier, we are upset that you have a harder time while learning less. Most of today's classes are shorter and harder than what they once were. In a quality class (hard to find, but still around), skills are broken down into smaller steps to make them easier to learn.
Last edited:
captain
Contributor
Similar threads
