Dumbing down of scuba certification courses (PADI) - what have we missed?

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...I have to ask, though, since I am still very new to this - how many divers today are diving without the octo? I think every photo I've seen in the magazines and every video I've watched of contemporary divers shows the typical set-up with the two hoses to the right for the two second stage regulators, the hose on the left for the low-pressure inflator, and either the hose for the SPG or (presumably) the wireless connection for the dive computer. For a situation to require Buddy Breathing with the modern set-up, Diver 'A' would have to suffer an out-of-air situation, and Diver 'B' would have to simultaneously suffer a second-stage failure on either the primary or the octo.

Serious question here; I'm not asking it rhetorically expecting you to answer it the way I want:

Is the omission of Buddy Breathing from the training truly a detriment to diver safety? Or is Buddy Breathing an anachronistic holdover from an earlier era of diving?...

...To be honest, a lot of this discussion sounds remarkably like, "You kids these days have it so easy! Why, when I was learning scuba, we had to swim ten miles to our cert dives, against the current, both ways, in fifty foot surf, surrounded by sharks! We didn't have no fancy-schmancy BCD's, either! We had to make our own flotation with old bleach bottles, and we were mighty glad to have 'em!"....

I think the point is that not so much that old timers are "chest thumping", it is that Basic OW has dropped some training that should not have been dropped.

Regarding Buddy-Breathing: This should still be taught. It is not difficult to learn and master.

Current PADI (and other) agency training is to donate your octopus to an OOA diver, which is just fine and dandy if you can find and depoly the octopus instantly, and if the octo does not malfunction on the first breath due to lack of care or regular servicing.... the last thing an OOA diver needs is a mouthfull of water on their first breath. A better option is to donate the regulator in your mouth... and if YOU get the mouthful of water from your octo you can deal with it better because you are less stressed.... but then, guess what, you are in a buddy-breathing situation.

Safe Diving.
 
No. The omission of buddy breathing is not in itself a serious safety concern. Most divers do have an octo. Usually, that octo even works. Sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, the combination of malfunctioning gear combined with the inability to buddy breathe, it can be a serious safety problem. I never recommend buddy breathing as a first choice, but it's nice to have as a second choice. It beats the hell out of an ESA.

I would think it would be common sense to verify the operation of your safety gear before diving, including the octo. Granted, common sense isn't as common as its name might imply, so expecting people to do a rather simple, intelligent step is rather presumptuous.

I would also like to point out that PADI lists Buddy Breathing as preferable to the ESA as well.



I'm referring to the PADI Open Water course. You are correct in your reading that you are not limited to following a DM around. OTOH, after getting their PADI OW C-card, most are not prepared for anything more than that and they all should be better prepared that that.

This is again an anecdotal statement. You say "most"; do you have any documentable statistics to quantify your statement? Or, are you basing it only on the complaints you've heard? I wouldn't doubt that you might have heard an overwhelming majority of complaints from people about their training. It's pretty much a given that unhappy people make more noise than happy ones do. A business could have a 90% or better rate of happy customers, and it's still a good bet the majority of their feedback mail is going to be complaints, because the few unhappy ones are the ones who will sound off.

Here again, the logical question: Are they not better prepared because of their training? Or are they not better prepared because they lack basic self-confidence?

Ask me to play my flute in front of an audience, and I'll be terrified the whole time. Is that because my flute teacher is inadequate? Or because of my own insecurities? My flute teacher is very good, and the instruction she provides exceptional. However, no amount of intellectual concepts, nor any number of smooth rehearsals, nor even having played a piece until it's almost automatic to perform it, has ever managed to banish that gut-wrenching nervousness I get playing in front of an audience. It can only be worked through with enough determination.

I've heard older divers talk about their first few times in the open water, and many of them say similar things to what you're reporting from new divers. Perhaps the old, more intense training wasn't so much the confidence builder, as such an investment that a person wouldn't give up so quickly if the first couple of dives weren't wonderful.





You've obviously not been reading what's been available for you to read. This type of comment shows you are either clueless about the class we are discussing. We are not upset they you have it easier, we are upset that you have a harder time while learning less. Most of today's classes are shorter and harder than what they once were. In a quality class (hard to find, but still around), skills are broken down into smaller steps to make them easier to learn.

I'm either clueless, or what? You didn't finish your statement. Either you lost your train of thought, or else your English teacher was inadequate and failed to ingrain in you the simple rules of written English.

Yes, that's an unfair statement, and I hope it managed the rhetorical purpose of getting you to see a point.

For one, you have no idea what I have or have not been reading. You assume I have not read what you consider authoritative texts because I question your statements. You are assuming I'm having a harder time learning less.

Excuse me, sir, but you are not in my class, are you? You have no idea what I have been learning, or how difficult it has or has not been for me. You merely embrace the conclusion that I fit into the preconceived average you wish to support by your statements, and project onto me the inadequacies inherent in that demographic.

One of the reasons I'm here on Scubaboard is to learn more than I'm going to get in class. That would be true whether I was in the PADI class, or in the old school NAUI course. I try to assimilate as much information as I can, beyond what the classroom situation I'm currently involved in provides.

What I don't do, however, is passively buy into opinions flung out with nothing more than vague generalities. As you have likely noticed, I can fling just as many vague generalities right back, and so far, I have little reason to believe yours are any more valid than mine. Yes, you have many years of experience diving, but you still have not managed to quote one lousy verifiable statistic to back up your observation.
 
... This is again an anecdotal statement. You say "most"; do you have any documentable statistics to quantify your statement? Or, are you basing it only on the complaints you've heard? I wouldn't doubt that you might have heard an overwhelming majority of complaints from people about their training. It's pretty much a given that unhappy people make more noise than happy ones do. A business could have a 90% or better rate of happy customers, and it's still a good bet the majority of their feedback mail is going to be complaints, because the few unhappy ones are the ones who will sound off.
Its not an anecdotal statement, though there is much anecdotal evidence to support it (e.g., YouTube - Diving Accident Broken Regulator). It is an expert opinion. One that I share.
Here again, the logical question: Are they not better prepared because of their training? Or are they not better prepared because they lack basic self-confidence?
Because of their inadequate training. Diving is not a "public performance."
I've heard older divers talk about their first few times in the open water, and many of them say similar things to what you're reporting from new divers. Perhaps the old, more intense training wasn't so much the confidence builder, as such an investment that a person wouldn't give up so quickly if the first couple of dives weren't wonderful.
I've extensive experience observing divers with 20 hours of training, 40 hours of training and 100 hours of training. There is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that more training equates to (on average) more competence and more confidence.
... Yes, you have many years of experience diving, but you still have not managed to quote one lousy verifiable statistic to back up your observation.
It is not a statistical question, it is one of expertise and experience.
 
I would think it would be common sense to verify the operation of your safety gear before diving, including the octo. Granted, common sense isn't as common as its name might imply, so expecting people to do a rather simple, intelligent step is rather presumptuous.......

You are 100% correct on both points:

1.) You should always test breath both regs before the dive. Now, when you've been diving for awhile, look around on a crowded dive boat or popular dive site and see how many divers actually do test-breath their octos. My experience has been "not too many". Next point,

2.) Considering how few divers you'll see test their octopus, how many do you think test breath it during the dive? Nearly zero. And I'll admit that I usually do not. I really should, but I don't. And sadly I probably represent the "norm" for most recreational divers.

So given that I've not tested my octo underwater, the only regulator I know to be functioning at the moment I need to assist an OOA diver is the one in my mouth, and this is the one I pass to an OOA diver. I'll be better able to deal with lack of air for a few moments if my octo malfuntions.... but then it's buddy breathing time.

I think a lot of the "old timers" are trying to give you good information (well, maybe Walter gets a wee bit gruff, but I always read what he is saying carefully :D ).

It is up to you to learn whatever you can from what we geezers are trying to tell you, as it is your choice to ignore it completely. But my opinion is that the more "opinions" you read from the old grumps :D , the better the chance something valuable and possibly life-saving will be added to your diving "toolbox".

Safe Diving.
 
PADI's ... request to instructors to stop mentioning air embolisms all happened after 1985.
I must have missed that 'request'. When (and how) did PADI make such a request?
 
I must have missed that 'request'. When (and how) did PADI make such a request?

Well, you know, "embolism" is an awfully big word and scary too. Don't they try to keep to small words with fewer than five letters, that is really a big word, hard to spell and everything.

N
edit, speaking of which, lol
 
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They changed it to emblemism ... you know, breaking out in patches.
 
They changed it to emblemism ... you know, breaking out in patches.

:rofl3: Wow, I wonder how much additional training it takes to get the "AGE" patch... and no, not the old age emblem, the "Lets see how fast I can surface... OUCH, THAT HURTS!" emblem, errrr, the Embolism Emblem??

:D
 
My PADI training lasted 3 weeks - 2 nights a week, one night classroom, then a pool night, with OW dives on the last weekend , I was comfortable in the water, had no trim issues, decent buoyancy control ( in pics and by the comments from other, much more experienced divers) but ... I was not ready for diving on my own . although I cant know how much of this is because of training, or may be because of my personal make up cause I'm kinda timid with new stuff
(yes, I did get more training, but it was an absolute blast)

I too read Walter's posts carefully .. as do I Thalassamainia's :)
 
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