Dumbing down of scuba certification courses (PADI) - what have we missed?

[Thalassamania]

There is no question in my mind that someday on-line learning will represent a self-leveling, hypertext rich, interactive teaching model that will be the equal of, or will surpass, all but the very, very best "live" teachers, just as some hypertext "books" are much more useful than many conventional books.

But that time is not here yet, and frankly what I've seen of on-line diving instruction is rather poor. It is aimed low and usually either fails or barely scrapes by in terms of information, has no "top" whatsoever and it is, overall, IMHO rather dull, lifeless and boring (at least when compared to a good "live" teacher). I hate to think it, but maybe its better than your average diving instructor, that I can not speak to, but that's the claim I often hear.

 

[Walter]

I should also mention that I did ask my instructor a lot of questions to help me understand things that I didn't completely comprehend based on my online instruction. Don't forget that the student is ultimately responsible for their own learning.

Excellent point, but there's sometimes the problem of thinking you understand something, so you don't ask.

Statisics compiled by the North American Council of Online Learning (now iNACOL) [iNACOL - International Association for K-12 Online Learning] has shown that students taking online Advanced Placement courses in high school have scores equal to or higher than students taking traditional courses.

Unless we know more about the students, we really don't know if that is meaningful or even if it indicates the online classes are significantly worse. Were the students taking the online courses of the same background, IQ, etc. as the students taking traditional courses to whom they were compared? If they had backgrounds more supporting of education, if they had exceptionally high IQs, I would expect them to do significantly better than average regardless of the type of study they undertook.

Online learning is no different than DVDs, videos or books. It's an excellent tool. An excellent instructor will use any of those to suppliment an excellent class. A poor instructor will use it as their class.

 

[The Chairman]

I see this is traveling down a familiar prickly path from reading previous posts from you. If you truly believe that your students learn as much from using elearning EXCLUSIVELY than they do from you participating in their academic progression, then perhaps you need to explore non teaching endeavors.

Now, why should such comments ever make me defensive? First read what I emboldened. It appears that you are the one reacting defensively here. Now, look how you are trying to box me in unfairly. I have indicated that the ACADEMICS of Scuba Diving can be done online, but that for SKILLS, they need an instructor. Please don't misrepresent me on this.

I base my comment on spending 8 years of actively training medical students and residents to become physicians.

Well, we aren't discussing rocket science here: it's SCUBA DIVING. I base my comments on 8 years of teaching Scuba Lessons and watching other instructors.

I would ask you ...Where does YOUR data come from that elearning exclusively is as effective as elearning in conjunction with an Instructor?

I don't think that there are numbers out there to evaluate. The entire field has exploded overnight. But, my real data comes from my students like Debra here. You can call it anecdotal if you wish, but feel free to ask her questions. Heck, we documented her class here on ScubaBoard.

What if your student does not understand Boyle's Law? What does the computer say when he/she is confused about the concept of volume and pressure? What if the computer can not explain the differences between density, volume and pressure? Do you tell the student to go ask the computer? Your proposed method illustrates your laziness to actually interact with your students. Get off your behind and actually talk to your students about their academic concerns. That's one of the things you are paid to do when they sign up for your course. Otherwise, send them to me and I'll fill in the academic blanks that the computer cannot answer.

Wow, a tough critic with a lot of anger!!! Maybe Debra can illuminate this area for us! Just don't tell him I taught you for free! He might have a seizure!

 

[The Chairman]

Most importantly, what people seem not to understand is that they are not being taught by R2-D2. An active teacher is a critical part of the best online education programs. In the programs that I led, we emphasized the need to make teacher interaction a critical part of the instructional process.

This is so true John! When Debra took her course, I was able to check her progress at any time. I could see all of the areas she had an issue with and was able to go back and discuss this with her. No, she is not typical of ANY student I have encountered. Heck, she works in the History of Diving Museum, so she had great motivation and resources. Still, given both her and my schedules, e-learning made it possible for her to be my student and I don't think that she is embarrassed by it at all.

But consider this, e-learning can be done in the comfort of your office or home on YOUR time schedule. No, it doesn't put you into the Dive shop every week for a month or two to whet your appetite about buying gear, but it does allow you to work at your own pace and back up on any section you don't understand. Hard to do in a class of 8 where we are trying to hold little Johnny's attention while explaining half times to his clueless father.

People can call me LAZY if they want to, but when I change a tire, I use my 1/2" Ingersol Rand pneumatic impact wrench to remove the lug nuts. I make "do" when I am without it, but I would rather use the right tool for the job!

 

[The Chairman]

I should also mention that I did ask my instructor a lot of questions to help me understand things that I didn't completely comprehend based on my online instruction. Don't forget that the student is ultimately responsible for their own learning.

Yes, you DID ask a lot of questions. However, I would wager that I asked you a lot more. Contrary to what some have indicated, I take great care to connect the science of diving with the skills of diving. For me, that is best done in the water.

 

[ScubaDocER]

Now, why should such comments ever make me defensive? First read what I emboldened. It appears that you are the one reacting defensively here. Now, look how you are trying to box me in unfairly. I have indicated that the ACADEMICS of Scuba Diving can be done online, but that for SKILLS, they need an instructor. Please don't misrepresent me on this. Well, we aren't discussing rocket science here: it's SCUBA DIVING. I base my comments on 8 years of teaching Scuba Lessons and watching other instructors. I don't think that there are numbers out there to evaluate. The entire field has exploded overnight. But, my real data comes from my students like Debra here. You can call it anecdotal if you wish, but feel free to ask her questions. Heck, we documented her class here on ScubaBoard. Wow, a tough critic with a lot of anger!!! Maybe Debra can illuminate this area for us! Just don't tell him I taught you for free! He might have a seizure!

You are still missing the broader point. But that's alright. You feel the way you do...and I am comfortable with my approach. Deb noted that she asked a lot of questions regarding her academic progression. Which speaks to my statement that elearning exclusively is not the answer. No anger here. Just disappointment that you have narrowly viewed and extremely important concept. My concern is not for you, but for other students and Instructors who may read your posts and think that all they need to comprehend the academic aspects of scuba is a dvd. I have read what you have typed. And it's disappointing. I am not boxing you in, merely commenting on your statements. It seems clearer the more you type. While it is not rocket science to you, it can be to your students. People have died in this sport and I would hope that an Instructor who felt that "it's not rocket science" and failed to appropriately educate his students did not contribute to it. You should look beyond your scope and examine your students needs. Until then you may be an Instructor, but will not be an Educator.

 

[The Chairman]

Which speaks to my statement that elearning exclusively is not the answer.

Please, just show me where I said this. You're assuming that Thal's histrionics have merit. If you think I am truly guilty of what you are accusing me of, just ask Deb. Until I have recovered from the Achilles Tendon surgery I am having this afternoon, she will be my last student. To that end, please do not take my subsequent absence as an affront.

For the record.

I am GLAD that some of the skills that were once taught are now gone. The Navy Seal approach to certification was WAY over the top. Just say "no" to push-ups wearing full kit on the hard deck! I am also glad to see the science minimized somewhat. These are great for those inclined to study these matters (like myself), but they often took away from teaching SKILLS. I applaud the departure from tables that SDI has taken. There is simply no demonstrable need to teach a skill that is seldom used by MOST students. You can teach the concepts of on and off gassing just as easily using a dive computer. You are WAY more likely to see a dive computer on a dive boat then you are to see a set of tables. Teach the students to use the tools that they will be using. Thank God my son did not have to learn the slide rule to get through High School Chemistry or Physics because someone has determined that calculators rot your brain and that the ONLY way to learn about inertia or Avogadro's number is with a slide rule!

I believe in e-learning for academics, however I also believe that no course of study for OW or for Cavern/Cave should be attempted without an instructor. That has long been established here on www.ScubaBoard.com to the point where I simply don't allow people to encourage otherwise. SDI/TDI agrees with me on this, and in order to take their class you have to CHOOSE an instructor. Saying that I encourage exclusively one way or another is simply preposterous and flies in the face of the evidence.

As an instructor, I almost always push my students to broaden their understanding of diving concepts using the probe and reveal methods. These are structured to enforce the need and understanding of the skills that I teach as we progress through them. It's a very systematic approach to getting the basics down in a way that is fun, thorough and SAFE. Those who comment on my teaching style without ever having seen me teach merely show their proclivity to jump to conclusions based on no tangible evidence. Rather than trust their flaming of me, just ask any of my students how much I care for their education.

For those instructors who can not adapt to new pedagogical ideas and concepts, I just feel sorry for you. Out of fear or whatever reason, you are missing out on a WONDERFUL revolution in dive training. It's not a dumbing DOWN of the classes, but a far more efficient method that can and will attract a lot more students and divers to our sport. Without them, I fear for our sport. Foisting worn out ideologies onto people who willingly and enthusiastically embrace the information age is just so wrong on so many levels.

Not to belabor the point, but surgery draws nigh. I have no idea when I will be able to return to this discussion or if I even need to. I have said all that I feel that I need to say on the subject though I am certain someone will still twist my words. Have a great day, and dive safe!

 

[boulderjohn]

You are still missing the broader point. But that's alright. You feel the way you do...and I am comfortable with my approach. Deb noted that she asked a lot of questions regarding her academic progression. Which speaks to my statement that elearning exclusively is not the answer. No anger here. Just disappointment that you have narrowly viewed and extremely important concept. My concern is not for you, but for other students and Instructors who may read your posts and think that all they need to comprehend the academic aspects of scuba is a dvd.

And I am stunned and amazed by the extremely narrow concept you have of e-learning. I have been involved with e-learning since 1995, with most of those years being as my primary career, and you are one of only a few people I have ever met who seems to operate under your definition. In Colorado alone, roughly 6,000 K-12 students (it's been a few years since I saw the actual statistics, so I could be a little off) are enrolled in full time public online schools, and I can't even guess how many are taking individual classes. My daughter in law just completed her last two years of her Bachelor's degree from a major universit--completely online. The International Baccalaureate programme has started to go online. In reponse to Walter's comments, the number of students taking AP courses online is in so many thousands that the identity of the specific students taking the classes is statistically irrelevant. All of these people know from experience that e-learning is more than plugging in a DVD, which is your dismissive definition.

You should look beyond your scope and examine your students needs. Until then you make be an Instructor, but will not be an Educator.

Truly touching. And you learned this in your eight years of teaching medical students? Perhaps you could share with us what you learned about meeting the needs of students with learning disabilities during those times. How about your approach to students with a lifetime history of academic failure? What do you do for special education stuents on IEP's? Minority students struggling to learn English? How about teaching tables and decompression theory to students who not only struggle with basic math concepts but are absolutely phobic about having to try?

In this very thread people have mocked divers who learn to dive in warm and pleasant tropical waters and think they know something about diving in the "real ocean." In this case you do the same thing with education, but you reverse the insult. You spend a mere 8 years teaching the academic elite who will make the effort to learn despite any poor instructional performance by the teacher and then have the temerity to insult others who teach in the "real ocean" of education.

 

[ScubaDocER]

For academics only, I believe it offers most students a better learning environment, including consistency, convenience and thoroughness. There is no need for a sage on the stage to imbue you with the wonders and mystery of diving during academics. There is plenty of time for that during the more important practical portion of the class. Indeed, freeing me from classroom duties allows me more time in the pool and in open water. That's what my students really need.

Please, just show me where I said this.

See above. Feeling that you need to be freed from the burden of participating in the academic education of your students and deferring additional academic information until the pool sessions means you are either skipping valuable academic information or using pool time that should have been dedicated to the academic sessions. If you believe (now)that elearning exclusively as a means to educate your students is insufficient then we are on the same page and can move on to another topic of discussion. You discussions with Thal have nothing to do with my comments to you. Please direct those to him.

I have no intention to twist your words. In truth, I would like to support you. The comments I have seen in regards to you have been mostly positive. You seem respected by those who know you. I have no issue with that and think it is a good thing. I agree with your last post in that elearning can be a wonderful tool and should be encouraged as a means to help students understand the concepts associated with diving. I just don't believe that eliminating the Instructor involvement from the process is helpful or beneficial. I think that NAUI should improve its academic elearning process. There is much more that they could do that would make the process more interactive and educational.

You commented on people jumping on you with regard to your teaching methods without taking a class from you. When you discuss your teaching style, that becomes the tag associated with you. It happens to all of us. Don't take it personal. Choose your words carefully and you might receive a different response.

There is nothing wrong with a healthy discussion on the diving issues of the day. That's how we learn and grow. I concur that perhaps we have beat this issue around enough and that it is time to move on.

I wish you well on your recovery from surgery.

 

[Thalassamania]

... Thank God my son did not have to learn the slide rule to get through High School Chemistry or Physics because someone has determined that calculators rot your brain and that the ONLY way to learn about inertia or Avogadro's number is with a slide rule!

Interesting that you bring up slide rules. I just used my old slide rule to help my son (7th grade) get a better grasp of exponents and logarithms, we used two yardsticks to add linear line segments to demonstrate the technique; and then used a slide rule to add logarithmic line segments. So even in today's world slide rules have their place, but you have to be able to get beyond just how to operate the tool to the first principles that it is based on. Which is the way I teach diving academics.

As an instructor, I almost always push my students to broaden their understanding of diving concepts using the probe and reveal methods. These are structured to enforce the need and understanding of the skills that I teach as we progress through them. It's a very systematic approach to getting the basics down in a way that is fun, thorough and SAFE. Those who comment on my teaching style without ever having seen me teach merely show their proclivity to jump to conclusions based on no tangible evidence. Rather than trust their flaming of me, just ask any of my students how much I care for their education

While you may "care" for your students' diver education, and that's great, the question is not one of caring (most everyone cares), its one of what you actually deliver. You may feel that the e-learning stuff you use delivers what is needed, but if that is the case, then you likely also feel that the agency texts deliver what is needed, but in a less effective format. That being the case, then we have an honest disagreement. If I were to stipulate that what is in the PADI, SSI, TDI, NAUI, etc. entry level text(s) was adequate, then you'd find me in complete agreement with you (with respect to e-learning), but I can not stipulate that, because I find all the entry level texts inadequate.

For those instructors who can not adapt to new pedagogical ideas and concepts, I just feel sorry for you. Out of fear or whatever reason, you are missing out on a WONDERFUL revolution in dive training. It's not a dumbing DOWN of the classes, but a far more efficient method that can and will attract a lot more students and divers to our sport. Without them, I fear for our sport. Foisting worn out ideologies onto people who willingly and enthusiastically embrace the information age is just so wrong on so many levels.

So for me it is a question of "dumbing down" since the e-leaning programs are designed to cover the information "required" by the already dumbed down entry level programs.

Let me provide an example.

I believe in teaching subjects so that, as much as possible, people can derive what they need to know from first principles. I use the concept of intuitive physics (sometimes referred to as naive physics) to teach the gas laws FROM UNDERLYING FIRST PRINCIPLES, just like I did with my son and my slide ruile. We move from the kinetic model of gases with inelastic molecules colliding with the container on through each of the gas laws, we don't care about the names, or about the ideal gas law, or how to show that "liter atmospheres per degree kelvin mole" can be shown to be a measure of work.

Before you get off on the anit-elitist high horse,this approach works well for High Schoolers and even savy Middle Schoolers. But this approach does not exist in the e-learning courses, when I do find it there, I will give serious consideration to using it.

So yes, it is the dumbing down ofthe cirriculum in general, first textbooks and that being relected in the e-learning programs that causes me to reject them ... not a dislike for or a distrust of a medium that holds much, as yet unfulfilled, promise.