DSAT Materials

[battles2a5]

In my experience..when faced with a plethora of new equipment, new weight distribution...and a whole mountain of new task loading, even very competent recreational divers can have issues with buoyancy once they start tech training.

So instead of addressing the bouyancy issue and getting them back to where they should be, you start doing drills on your knees? Doesn't make sense to me. They will have to relearn the new skill once they are forced to hover in trim.

As you say yourself "Once you have the basics down", then adding further skills is easy.

Training is progressive. Throwing someone in at the deep end, bomarding them with too many new skills at the same time and overly task loading them is stupid.

Right, so address the issues first (See above) then introduce new skills.

Trust me...people have thought about the DSAT program..and they knew what they were doing. The original cadre of program designers and first generation DSAT instructors were all already experienced tech instructors with other organisations and crossed into the DSAT tech program when it was released.

I cannot say the same about certain other tech agencies...but that is just hearsay..

When you say they knew what they were doing, what exactly was their goal? Was is to come up with a program to market technical diving and develop an accessible set of courses to compliment the PADI curriculum or was it to develop the best technical diving course possible? Not saying I know the answer, but PADI is definitely the king of marketing in scuba training, and I'm sure the business development folks had a lot of input as to how this course should be run.

I see you edited out the shot you took at me regarding my technical trianing. I am trained on OC through Adv Trimix and Full Cave through various agencies (TDI, NAUI, NSS-CDS, NACD) and the rEvo rebreather (IANTD). So in the spirit of full disclosure, what technical instruction did you receive outside of DSAT that has allowed you to develop your expert opinion comparing the value of the DSAT courses vs. other agencies?

 

[scjoe]

Starting people out on their knees is a bit like T-ball. Some people think both are aids in the learning progression, others think not. I am not aware that there is any real proof either way.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I have actually met one of the DSAT Tech Deep authors and can honestly say I was not impressed. I have the whole crew pak and while it does have alot of useful info there is also alot to get a good laugh out of. Especially the kneeling on the bottom stuff. I do not allow my OW students to kneel on the bottom to do skills after pool session 3. The following 5 sessions all basic skills are done in a horizontal position and used to build on for more complex tasks. The holding on with your knees to shoot a bag is a real riot. I just had an AOW student do this(shoot a bag) at the end of his nav dive while in midwater, very mild current, and there was no need to grip something with his knees. I don't understand the fascination with using knees for everything.

 

[DevonDiver]

So instead of addressing the bouyancy issue and getting them back to where they should be, you start doing drills on your knees? Doesn't make sense to me. They will have to relearn the new skill once they are forced to hover in trim.

Right, so address the issues first (See above) then introduce new skills.

I think we are talking about the same here...and I am certainly not personally advocating teaching tech classes from a kneeling position. The only possible time that kneeling could be preferential is during the initial confined water sessions - where working space may be a consideration and you need a group tight together to view demonstrations...without the distraction of maintaining bouyancy in the new equipment.

The fact that some of the illustrative photos in the manual feature tech students kneeling is, in no way, indicating a teaching standard or performance requirement. However, it does suitably illustrate what needs to be illustrated, for that stage in the training.

From a student's perspective...at the outset of the course... I think that if all skills/training had to be done from a horizontal position, then it could cause too much task loading (depending on the student). In that sense...the illustrations used in the book, provide some familarity to the new student, who is used to that method of training...and the fact that training will rapidly progress to being 'real' in open water.

Illustrations in the open water manual show students kneeling...but nobody would suggest that all training conducted on that course should be done kneeling. It is just a starting point.

Many newbie tech students need that starting point...but, of course, will rapidly move past it....

When you say they knew what they were doing, what exactly was their goal? Was is to come up with a program to market technical diving and develop an accessible set of courses to compliment the PADI curriculum or was it to develop the best technical diving course possible? Not saying I know the answer, but PADI is definitely the king of marketing in scuba training, and I'm sure the business development folks had a lot of input as to how this course should be run.

Well, I wouldn't want to comment on issues like 'business development' because I am not privy to that information. My point was only that the DSAT program was created using the consultation of existing tech instructors (from other agencies).

I would like to believe that DSAT aimed to create a well-structured course...and that itself would be the best marketing.

I don't want to get into the realm of this agency is better or worse than the other. Those arguments are pointless...especially when it comes to tech tuition. I only wanted to add some balance to (what I believed to be) some lame PADI-bashing comments. It seemed to me that some posters were inferring that DSAT tech would be taught by idiots, on their knees etc....and I think everyone with some common sense should know that this is not the case.

The issue regarding DSMB deployment is valid however....as I feel that this drill should be slick and performed mid-water. Maybe for legal reasons PADI have to state the safest method of deployment as an example? My point being, that if students were only given the option of deploying from horizontal in mid-water...and messed it up...maybe they could sue PADI, because another alternative was available?

Either way... I don't know a tech instructor from any agency that would teach only that method...or who would fail to train students to deploy safely from mid-water.

I see you edited out the shot you took at me regarding my technical trianing.....So in the spirit of full disclosure, what technical instruction did you receive outside of DSAT that has allowed you to develop your expert opinion comparing the value of the DSAT courses vs. other agencies?

Yes mate...I realised it was a dumb ass comment and edited it immediately. Sorry for that. PM me if you want to discuss inter-agency experiences - as I don't like to see such discussions turning into silly agency-bashing (as so often happens). Not suggesting you would...but there are other posters who do display that sort of ignorance....

 

[DevonDiver]

I have actually met one of the DSAT Tech Deep authors and can honestly say I was not impressed.

Hi Jim. Can you say why this was?

I have the whole crew pak and while it does have alot of useful info there is also alot to get a good laugh out of. Especially the kneeling on the bottom stuff.

I think it has pros and cons.

PRO. It is familiar to students who have only done recreational courses before (as an illustration...because it matches the format of other PADI manuals).

CON. It may create some confusion over the end-state performance requirements expected on the course.

I do not allow my OW students to kneel on the bottom to do skills after pool session 3. The following 5 sessions all basic skills are done in a horizontal position and used to build on for more complex tasks. The holding on with your knees to shoot a bag is a real riot. I just had an AOW student do this(shoot a bag) at the end of his nav dive while in midwater, very mild current, and there was no need to grip something with his knees. I don't understand the fascination with using knees for everything.

I personally think that all divers should be able to shoot a bag safely in mid-water. I usually include it as an 'extra' on my AOW courses (but it is not a performance requirement).

Interestingly, this (from the knees, or holding something) was exactly how I was initially taught many years ago...with BSAC. As far as I know, they still describe that method in their training.

Starting people out on their knees is a bit like T-ball. Some people think both are aids in the learning progression, others think not. I am not aware that there is any real proof either way.

I think it entirely depends on the student. I remember back to when I did my first tech course (TDI, with Mark Powell in an icy quarry)....and was completely task loaded and overwhelmed. mmmm..crashing head first into deep silt whilst attempting my first shut-down! ha ha

Now, if I have a student that gets swamped...I have the option of isolating that skill (by kneeling..or even just holding them)...and getting some repetitive practice to build the muscle memory. Then...once the skill itself is slick...go back to the horizontal and put the two together.

 

[Peter Guy]

DevonDiver -- a couple of responses from many posts ago to questions addressed to me:

a. Why address Recreational divers in a "Tec" manual? Because PADI "suggests" Recreational divers obtain this manual for some of the Recreational Specialties (for example, EAN). In my opinion, much of the "technical skills" are merely good diving skills and have nothing to do with being a "tech diver." Thus knowing how to balance your bubble between your dry suit and your BCD is something a recreational dry suit diver should be able to do. Likewise, knowing non-silting kicks as a recreational diver is a good thing to know, especially if you routinely dive in a silty environment (like we have here where I dive, Puget Sound). A "recreational diver" should have good diving skills and PADI/DSAT should NOT have written that such skills are beyond the ability of the "recreational diver" so as to give the "recreational diver" a pass on skill expertise.

b. Re the "on their knees" doing skills like valve drills and SMB shoots. Yes, I understand that you have to learn sometime and that learning is progressive. BUT, the basics should be ingrained and THEN progress to doing "higher level" skills. The basics being, in the particular case, the ability to hold oneself in the water column -- aka, buoyancy control along with some semblance of maintaining "trim."

Thus prior to working on the SMB/Valve drill type skills, the student should have "mastered" the basic safety skills (mask flood/removal, air share) with appropriate buoyancy control. Once that is done, then go on to "higher level" skills (valve drills, SMB, etc.) without the need to demonstrate them on the knees.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Sure. While a nice enough guy he was not in favor of managing or eliminating narcosis by introducing helium until tech trimix. Insisted deep air was safe enough to 165 feet. Also insisted that the DSAT course was THE safest way to learn extended range diving. When I asked him about breaking things down into more manageable courses and allowing the student to progress at their own pace by taking things in steps such as Adv Nitrox, Deco, Helitrox or Heliair, and then Trimix his postion was that it was not optimum from a BUSINESS standpoint. People would perhaps stop at Adv Nitrox or do deco on dives in recreational range. It would be hard to justify charging 1200-1500 plus for just those two courses. Better to get that amount up front and then get them into trimix. I pushed a little harder and asked well why couldn't they just take the course, get some dives in each section to perfect their skills, and then go on to the end. Why do just the 12 required dives? He response was that in doing these other dives the center might lose them as a customer if they got around different systems and divers. The point was to keep them in the "dive center family" and have them come back for all their training. I admit I use the book for references to augment my advanced open water class. I do not like the all one agency or nothing approach and disagree with deep air when helium is so convenient and reduces the task loading, and IMO and that of others makes things safer when properly taught.

I also agree with Peter as far as skills goes. If diver cannot hold trim and do all basic skills in midwater they have no business going into a tech course. That is not the place to learn to get off your knees, that should have been done a long time before. Like in OW poool sessions