Doubles recommendation for an average size man (6')

[keithdiver]

NO info on Zeagle or Apex tech 3 regs??????????????????????????????

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

From: [email addresss deleted] (ROBBINS, ROB)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:14 NZD
To: [email addresss deleted]
Subject: Antarctic Regs

Here is a chart of regulator performance from tests conducted by US
Antarctic Program from '89 thru '95. The data was accumulated by
Jeff Bozanic and Jim Mastro.

All dives were conducted in McMurdo Sound, Antarctica. Water temp
range -1.9C to -1.2C. All failures were due to free flow.

FFM dives were done in Dry Valley lakes. Water temp 0C.

Based on these tests, USAP now issues Maximus regulators. As
mentioned earlier, we have had NO failures for past two seasons
having made approximately 2000 dives on the regs during that time.

Hope the information is of value.

Rob Robbins
Scientific Diving Coordinator
US Antarctic Program

Regulator Type # Dives # Failures % Failure

Sherwood Maximus 1341 23 1.7%
Sherwood Blizzard 2 2 100.0%
Poseidon Cyklon 300 710 40 5.6%
Poseidon Odin 270 15 5.6%
US Divers RAM 259 45 17.4%
US Divers Arctic Supreme 7 4 57.1%
US Divers Pro Diver 3 2 66.7%
US Divers Conshelf Supreme 7 4 57.1%
Scubapro Mk10/G200 27 13 48.1%
Scubapro Mk10/D350 17 3 17.6%
Scubapro Mk200/G200 8 8 100.0%
Scubapro Mk10/D400 7 1 14.3%
Scubapro Mk10/Polar 6 2 33.3%
Scubapro Mk10/G250 1 1 100.0%
Dacor Extreme Ice 25 4 16.0%
Mares MR-3 2 2 100.0%
DSI EXO-26 FFM 106 11 10.4%
AGA FFM 12 0 0.0%
Totals 2989 178 6.0%

Wow, double hoses didn't fair so well. Looks like the person that told me that was full of BS.
That's good to know, not that I'm planning on diving in super freezing cold water anytime soon.

 

[vshearer]

NO info on Zeagle or Apex tech 3 regs??????????????????????????????

They didn't make the cut.

The United States Navy Experimental Diving Unit: Testing in Antartica

Actually the RAM was used a lot until the early 90's.

All they needed to do was put a couple of dessicant packs in the exhaust hose before each dive and those babies would still be in use. :cool2:

 

[vshearer]

Wow, double hoses didn't fair so well. Looks like the person that told me that was full of BS.
That's good to know, not that I'm planning on diving in super freezing cold water anytime soon.

No, it is true that they are far more resistant by design, and as you state nobody dove these conditions, with few exceptions, during the last 50 years, in which time they held their own for decades. And the Poseidon, being an upstream valve, has the advantage there.

One has to look at a number of factors. Notice many of the regs in the first report had very few dives.In the original report, and I wish I could find it now, they stated that many of these were personal regulators brought by personnel.

Sorry, I guess I got this thread completely off-track.

 

[Luis H]

From: [email addresss deleted] (ROBBINS, ROB)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:14 NZD
To: [email addresss deleted]
Subject: Antarctic Regs

Here is a chart of regulator performance from tests conducted by US
Antarctic Program from '89 thru '95. The data was accumulated by
Jeff Bozanic and Jim Mastro.

All dives were conducted in McMurdo Sound, Antarctica. Water temp
range -1.9C to -1.2C. All failures were due to free flow.

FFM dives were done in Dry Valley lakes. Water temp 0C.

Based on these tests, USAP now issues Maximus regulators. As
mentioned earlier, we have had NO failures for past two seasons
having made approximately 2000 dives on the regs during that time.

Hope the information is of value.

Rob Robbins
Scientific Diving Coordinator
US Antarctic Program

Regulator Type # Dives # Failures % Failure

Sherwood Maximus 1341 23 1.7%
Sherwood Blizzard 2 2 100.0%
Poseidon Cyklon 300 710 40 5.6%
Poseidon Odin 270 15 5.6%
US Divers RAM 259 45 17.4%
US Divers Arctic Supreme 7 4 57.1%
US Divers Pro Diver 3 2 66.7%
US Divers Conshelf Supreme 7 4 57.1%
Scubapro Mk10/G200 27 13 48.1%
Scubapro Mk10/D350 17 3 17.6%
Scubapro Mk200/G200 8 8 100.0%
Scubapro Mk10/D400 7 1 14.3%
Scubapro Mk10/Polar 6 2 33.3%
Scubapro Mk10/G250 1 1 100.0%
Dacor Extreme Ice 25 4 16.0%
Mares MR-3 2 2 100.0%
DSI EXO-26 FFM 106 11 10.4%
AGA FFM 12 0 0.0%
Totals 2989 178 6.0%

I have seen that report before. I have a copy somewhere.

The US Divers RAM was the regulator of choice in Antarctica until 1992. Not bad for regulators that were last built almost two decades earlier. The reason was their high reliability.

My understanding (although not specifically mentioned) is that this study was done to find a reliable regulator that was still supported by the manufacturer. Keep in mind that the service on these regulators was mostly using 20 year old NOS parts. Rubber parts even if they are new just don’t do well after 20 years in storage.

My guess is that the mouthpiece valves were not keeping the moisture well out of the second stage.

I am guessing this since I did have one incident once of a free flow under the ice due to water in the can on a highly tuned Phoenix RAM. My regulator was just set to perform too sensitive for the situation the slightest free flow was compounded by the water inside the second stage.

In a double hose, both the first and the second stage are environmentally sealed (unless there is a malfunction). Water is never supposed to reach the first or second stage.

IMHO, if VDH would have introduced the new silicone mouthpiece valves and silicone diaphragms ( and some of the other reproduction parts) in 1992, they might still be using the same RAM’s almost 20 more years later. Also the addition of the Phoenix makes it easier to use a dry-suit, etc.

I have done several ice and other cold water dives with a Phoenix RAM and is deffinetlly my regulator of choice. As a back-up (if I use a two outlet manifold) I use an enviromentally sealed Conshelf first stage with a Scubapro metal Balanced adjustable second satge (with the know turned in).

 

[duckbill]

IMHO, if VDH would have introduced the new silicone mouthpiece valves and silicone diaphragms ( and some of the other reproduction parts) in 1992, they might still be using the same RAM’s almost 20 more years later.

I thought silicone valves were being used in the double hose USD regulators, as early as the late 70s or early 80s. Weren't silicone valves standard in those late, clear wagon wheels? When did those come out?

 

[Luis H]

My original RAM that I have owned since I was a kid does have a set of clear plastic wagon wheels, but the valves were always black rubber. I don’t know for sure what kind of rubber, but don’t think it would be black silicone… They always looked to me like they were plain old neoprene or similar.

Someone might have been making some silicone valves later (maybe in the 80's), but I never came across any. I got a regulator a couple of years ago with older clear valves, but the edges were hand cut to fit. I don't know were the valves came from.


In any case my point is that NOS (new old stock) rubber components may not work as well as newly manufactured rubber components. This applies some rubber (elastomers) materials more than others, but I believe it affects basically all rubber products to some degree.

For example, a mushroom valve that is not stored flat may never again seal as well as one that is flat, even if the material seems in perfect condition.

 

[halocline]

I have used a NOS neoprene main diaphragm in my RAM and it worked extremely well, at least in warm water. I was able to tune the reg just as well as with the silicone replacement.

I think the advantage of the silicone is that it stays flexible longer. Usually we're comparing the performance of the new silicone diaphragm with old neoprene.

I've also found that what seems to work best for me with the wagon wheels is an updated (rounded) one on the intake side, and a flat one on the exhaust. For some reason, I've found I get a better seal on the exhaust side that way, and of course exhaust effort is a non-issue on these regs.

I don;t have near the level of experience you guys do with double hose regs, but that's been my initial experience.

 

[halocline]

I really do love my DA. But someday I really want a Royal since I hear they are the top of the line. It's just that work is really slow right now and I don't have that kind of coin to drop on another DH.
From what I hear double hose regs are naturally anti freezing just because of the nature of the design.

I was lucky enough to find a used RAM nozzle for my DA and rebuilt it. Bryan helped me out with the internals that can be hard to find. (local AL dealer is worse than useless) I have found it to be a big improvement, both in terms of performance and in working on the reg. The RAM seats are just much better.

Of course the easiest no muss/no fuss solution is to get a phoenix nozzle. When you consider all the problems it solves, $180 is a deal.

 

[duckbill]

For some reason I thought some of the clear wagon wheels had been found with white silicone valves in them, but I may not be remembering correctly.

I don't know, but I'd bet silicone retains flexibility better than neoprene in freezing conditions too. While the main diaphragm is probably a factor, I can't help but think the 1st stage diaphragm becoming stiff at 30-some degrees must affect performance as well.