Doubles Bolts Too Long (Again)

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MrVegas

Contributor
Messages
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Location
Ohio
# of dives
200 - 499
20250327_213933.jpg



OK -- I got my doubles back from hydro and viz and the bolts are too long. These are LP85s. They used an all-thread -- photo above, and, in theory, it looks easy to change the bolt length without undoing anything or draining the tanks if I do one at a time. However, before attempting this, I thought I would ask a few questions. What tools do people use to reach the nuts in this situation? Do I need to loosen the manifold? Should I clamp the bands? I have watched quite a few videos on assembling doubles, and none of them really show people addressing this situation.

Or do I throw everything in the back of my car again and take it back to the shop? (Honestly, there is a part of me that wishes I had just bought AL80s -- more lead, but everyone knows the fill pressure and they are 7.25, so no issues with bands.)
 
I am not sure I understand. Are you dropping off the cylinders at the dive shop, who then disassemble everything, send them off for re-qualification, then reassemble them? And as part of that they are using different hardware than what they were brought in with?

That said, none of my doubles have a nut between the bands. As they all use a bolt (opposed to a threaded rod). Yours look to also use a bolt so the nut on the inside is fubar because it stops the bands from being tighten fully. There is also no lock washer which is really fubar.

Further, the bands do not appear to properly sized. The gap looks to be ~1" On my Faber LP85s and LP66s the gap is 2.375", on my Faber LP78s and Faber 45s it is 1.75" The bolt length is 4.5" as is fully threaded which is normal.

As a start I would say the issue are the bands not the bolts. I would guess they are 7.25" bands when they should've been 7" or preferably 6.9" bands (assuming they are Faber LP85s).

IMG_5061.jpg
 
Assemble with the BPW so you can see how much bolt sticks above your speednut. Use a hacksaw/sawzalll/multi-tool to cut that much off the bolt and clean up / lightly round the corners of the end with a file. No need to disassemble the bands.
 
Looks like you're using bands for designed for 7.25" tanks on 7" diameter tanks. Totally doable, but means the bands get pulled together tighter in the middle than they would when used with 7.25" doubles, and you would likely need slightly shorter bolts since the head of the bolt is almost an inch closer to center. You can either cut them down, or most decent size hardware stores will carry multiple lengths of stainless steel bolts in 5/16 and 3/8 thread. The nut in the middle is unecessary, and might be preventing the bands from fully cinching down on the tanks since the nut it is acting as a stop. Determine correct bolt length per inquis suggestion above, assembling on your backplate with the wing in between and the speed nuts tight, measuring the portruding bolt length as the amount to remove.

Pirhana has bands designed for 6.9-7" tanks if you want to switch out the bands for a better fit. Personally I'd just cut down the bolts, file a slight chamfer, and chase the cut thread with a die, but these are an option too: 6.9 to 7.00 Inch Stainless Steel Cylinder Bands

Regardless, lay the tanks down on a table set on a couple 2x4s and you can carefully change the fasteners or the entire band one at a time with no issues whatsoever. If you change bands, get them both on finger tight first, with tanks fully supported on a couple blocks of wood, and make sure the manifold still easily can swing back and forth, as center to center spacing will likely change. If that last sentence makes no sense, ask for clarification before you begin. If you just want to remove that nut in the middle, first remove one nut on the outside, put an open end wrench on the nut in the middle, and then just use a ratchet to unthread the bolt head from the captured nut.

edit - one other thing - GO SLOW. Stainless hardware galls easily, which basically means if you crank on a stainless nut on a stainless bolt and it even slightly heats up, the threads basically weld themselves together. I've had to cut out and throw away stainless bolts on friends doubles when they crank the nuts on or off carelessly and mess up the threads when breaking them down for an annual visual. Again, no big deal, just a little bit of grinding and quick trip to the hardware store for $6 bolts, but you can avoid it by going slow. I also use a dab of nickel-based antisieze compound on doubles hardware to help prevent galling. Permatex® Nickel Anti-Seize Lubricant, .5 OZ - Permatex®
 
Assemble with the BPW so you can see how much bolt sticks above your speednut. Use a hacksaw/sawzalll/multi-tool to cut that much off the bolt and clean up / lightly round the corners of the end with a file. No need to disassemble the bands.

You can certainly do it that way… And if they’re excessively long, and I had everything else positioned exactly where I wanted them to be but there was still too much bolt left, that’s pretty much exactly what I would do.

However, if that truly is threaded rod (and not a bolt) on your tanks, I very much dislike the fact that you have the back nut, a nut that is critical to holding your bands together, without at least a few threads sticking out past it. It’s way too easy for that nut to come off. Therefore, I think you need to shift that entire rod back some no matter what, even if you then decided to cut some of it off.

If I were asked to do it, the way I would do it relatively simple: loosen all three nuts on that all thread a little bit (1/8” or so), re-tightening them in such a way as to shift the all thread where I wanted it to be, then tighten all the nuts back up. Basically, that means loosening the top annd middle nut, and then tightening the back nut up, then loosening the top nut, etc. I wouldn’t touch the manifold, nor would I touch the bottom band. Be very careful and don’t move the tanks around, and you’ll have no problem adjusting that rod to where you want it to be.

Personally, I am not a fan of putting a nut inside of the two bands. That’s mainly because it makes operations like this one very difficult. It’s difficult to get a wrench on that nut, and because of that, most people put that nut in place and then tighten everything around *that* nut. What that means in practice is that unless that nut was put exactly where it needed to be right from the beginning, you get exactly the situation you have: the rod is in the wrong spot, and it’s difficult to fix.

I haven’t seen any arguments why having that extra nut there is valuable, anyway: there’s still stress on the back half of the band, so I don’t see how it’s really relieving or securing anything. Now, if you used four nuts, one on each side of the two pieces of the band, I can see how that would hold everything in place while needing a little bit less stress on the bands. But that’s a really big hassle to do. And with modern bands with the extra thick spacers welded in, I just don’t see any value. If someone out there can give me a good reason I’m open to it, but I haven’t seen it or experienced it.

Anyway, once you finish the top band and get it tightened back in place with the bolts being the right length, you can repeat the process with the bottom band.

ETA: a trick I just recently learned from @coleman.jamie: with all thread, you need a way of being able to grab the rod when you’re loosening or tightening things. In the past, I just picked an out-of-the-way spot and grabbed it with channel lock style pliers. Yes, it chewed up the thread, so I always made sure I had a nut where I could re-chase the threads with it. Yes, not at all the way it should be done.

He showed me that if you take two nuts and thread them on the threaded rod a bit and then tighten the two nuts against each other, you could then use those nuts like the head of a bolt and the threaded rod would stay in place. Simple, and preserves your threads. So I thought I would share. Once you say it out loud it’s so obvious and simple, but I had never seen it before, so hopefully that’ll help someone else from screwing up their threads. :-)

ETA2:
That said, none of my double have a bolt between the bands. Which is fubar because it stops the bands from being tighten fully. There is also no lock washer which is really fubar.

I missed this the first time I read it. I already mentioned the fact that I don’t put a nut between the bands, either: nice to see someone else agrees with me. :-) That is, assuming you wrote “bolt” when you actually meant “nut”.

I too noticed the missing lock washer. But I’m not a fan of lockwashers. I’m much prefer Nylok self-locking nuts. And I would very much recommend that you add them here.

Honestly, given the large amount of questionable choices demonstrated here, I honestly think I would consider completely redoing everything. The entire look of this assembly gives the vibe of being put together quickly, and doesn’t give me a great deal of confidence. Someone else mentioned making sure that the center isolator is not under strain. That can sometimes be easy, but sometimes can be surprisingly difficult, especially when you’re using bands not designed for this size tank as you seem to be here. It ends up taking more than a little bit of adjusting between the isolator position and both sets of bands. I’m not certain that that was done here.

Anyway, you asked a specific question, and I tried to give you a specific answer to that question. But I would consider that you consider the entire assembly as a whole and decide what’s best for your situation.
 
I missed this the first time I read it. I already mentioned the fact that I don’t put a nut between the bands, either: nice to see someone else agrees with me. :-) That is, assuming you wrote “bolt” when you actually meant “nut”.
Yes, meant nut not bolt. Fixed. Thanks.

For the OP at this point we need a bit more details. If these are newly doubled cylinders, don't do anything but take them back to the shop and ask for them to be either properly assembled with the correct bands or your money back. Assembling doubles is not hard. And to be honest if one is diving doubles one should be assembling doubles themselves as one should learn the finer points of a manifold and adjusting it correctly so there is no binding.
 
My 2 solutions in order of preference would be…

1- Go to hardware store and buy appropriate size bolts, it’s cheap and very very easy to change them.

2- Pull bolts out and then thread those inside nuts all the way to end, you’d likely need some more, or washers/spacers to take up space shortening the other end to desired length.
In other words, move the extra length from front of doubles to back of doubles, and no, this will not cause a snagging/entanglement hazard, it’d still be recessed way inside below the tanks line.
 
allThread.JPG


All-Thread setup on my Tiny Doubles. Setup is: Loosen all 3 nuts, position all-thread where it needs to be, tighten back 2 nuts. At this point, it is effectively a bolt, and you then just tighten the front nut to set the band tension.

I like serrated flange nuts, as then you don't have to mess around with washers and lock washers. I'd use nylocks if I didn't have them.

As for tools, either just 2 wrenches, or a wrench and a deep socket. Nothing special.
 
View attachment 890546

All-Thread setup on my Tiny Doubles. Setup is: Loosen all 3 nuts, position all-thread where it needs to be, tighten back 2 nuts. At this point, it is effectively a bolt, and you then just tighten the front nut to set the band tension.

I like serrated flange nuts, as then you don't have to mess around with washers and lock washers. I'd use nylocks if I didn't have them.

As for tools, either just 2 wrenches, or a wrench and a deep socket. Nothing special.
You got plenty of feedback on the bolts already....

But in addition, get rid of those delrin "nuts". They are not up for the demands placed on them with doubles and it's only a matter of time before you crack one or both which is a disaster. Stainless wing nuts are totally up for the job, don't loosen, and never break.
 

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