Double bladder question

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This has gotten to the point where it has become more of a troll that a useful thread, but I'll try to throw out a rational response anyway.

On 99 out of 100 dives nothing is going to go wrong. You need to make allowances for the one dive that goes funny, but for the most part, you want to be as streamlined, and as comfortable on the 99 dives. You still want to be able to cope with whatever goes wrong on dive #100, but you don't want to optimize your gear for failures that will rarely or never happen. So even if a double bladder wing makes life a little easier on dive #100, it adds a little extra drag, and a little more problems on the other 99 dives. Anybody doing tech level dives should be able to manage with a drysuit for buoyancy for one dive. You don't have to enjoy doing it, as you will probably never have to in your diving career.

The Dual bladder wing adds several problems. Even if it's not hooked up, you still need to make sure the second bladder is fully dumped before every dive. Leaving air in it makes problems. You also need to find somewhere to store the spare inflator that you can easily reach. You say to put it in a pocket, but what pocket are you talking about exactly? I've never seen a good, easily accessible place for this. Finally, you don't really get that much redundancy with a dual bladder. If you have a post failure, you still lose your power inflator, and the dual bladder gives you nothing. The only benefit is when you lose one and only one of your bladders. If you make contact with something that tears your bladder, you will probably lose both bladders, but more importantly, you are probably not controlling your buoyancy very well. Also, a large 85' wing is a lot more floppy and more prone to get snagged, so you are creating more problems for yourself by using a bulky wing in the first place.

If you have some problem with the wing delaminating, your second bladder will probably help you, but if there was a manufacturing defect with bladder #1, what says bladder #2 hasn't already ruptured and you don't know about it? So you have to routinely check the operation of both bladders, which increases the chances you will accidently leave gas in the wing during your dives.

So why no double wings? Because they are unlikely to help on Dive #100, and present issues during the other 99 normal dives.

Tom
 
you still haven't answered me. why would you not have a second wing? and let's not be pissy with the drysuit/liftbag/buddy responses. i'm not looking for some 'DIR' response to this query; i'm looking for a real world answer as to why this is not 'DIR' and what the real reason is. again, still waiting for intelligent responses...

thanks.

erik

The whole point of diving a balanced rig is that in the case of a wing failure a diver can swim to the surface. Therefore a wing isn't really needed for safety. A double bladder wing is really not needed. We tend to only ad gear if the benefits outweigh the risks associated with the added complexity/failure points. In this case they don't.

The other thing to consider is that if you do tare your wing there is a good chance that you will still be able to position your body to keep gas in the wing. In my Tech 2 we did entire dives without the dump valve screwed in and it wasn't an issue at all.

Hope that give you your answer.
 
well i might not need it, but why not take it?

Just a suggestion from another fellow just starting the DIR road, but let's back up a ways. The DIR philosophy--like the Hogarthian philosophy--is minimalist. So honestly for each piece of gear, each practice, the question I am learning to ask is "Can I get rid of this thing? Or do I absolutely, positively have to have this thing and there is no way around it??"

If we sit around and discuss a redundant bladder in a vacuum it may sound like a good idea. But if you are donning a dry suit, do you really need it? If you are carrying an SMB or lift bag for other purposes, do you really need it??

I am not saying that there is no way to integrate a double bladder into a successful and happy diving career. I am just saying that if you turn the question around and consider every piece of gear suspect unless you absolutely, positively must carry it, the double bladder is redundant, and not in a good way.

JM2C, I do not speak for GUE and I am not authorized to preach DIR.
 
i'm not looking for some 'DIR' response to this query; i'm looking for a real world answer as to why this is not 'DIR' and what the real reason is.

A few people have suggested you ask your question elsewhere. I interpret your sentences above as asking to explain why the DIR philosophy is the way it is rather than asking what the DIR philosophy is.

One thing to think about is that diving philosophies may be "local maxima." If you take a pure DIR approach, each little tweak to it makes it worse, not better. But if you follow a radically different approach, you may end up with a different philosophy, which you can tweak until you reach its local maxima.

Which is a long way of saying that IMO, if you are subscribing to DIR on the whole, deviating in small ways like taking a second wing or dual bladder wing will make things worse. But that doesn't mean that a dual bladder wing is bad per se, it may be part of some other philosophy that as an integrated whole forms its own local maxima.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that the answer to your question of why the DIR philosophy chooses this particular set of practices and equipment is that they forma local maxima: given certain fundamental axiomatic choices like minimalism and team diving, DIR represents the optimum set of choices.

Deviating from DIR in small ways is counter-productive, if you wish to break from DIR you probably need to make a wholesale change in philosophy to find another local maximum. For example, if you choose to dive solo you need to re-examine nearly every DIR choice.
 
I don't think he's looking for an answer, only attention.

Answers to the questions of why it's not needed and what problems it can add have been given.

Of course, a simple search would have produced these as this is covered all the time, but he seemed more interested in posting than learning.
 
I have been diving doubles a backplate and wing and drysuit for more than 17 years and because of the job I do, have in that time logged a lot of dives in a variety of conditions from freshwater caves, to open ocean wrecks. Occasionally the nature of these dives has required a long ride back to the surface. On occasion, my team mates and I have carried a fair amount of additional kit... stage bottles, cameras, scooters and the like. I have had one catastrophic wing failure in all that time... the dump valve casing broke and came away in my hand. I finished the dive upright in the water (so the broken valve was at the lowest possible point), much to the amusement of the rest of my team... they saluted me at every opportunity.

Your mileage may vary, but I have never found the need for a double bladder wing in my personal experience. I am sure they have an application, but not in the conditions in which I dive. I have tried them out on a couple of occasions and have found them to be a tad too large overall with some bunching behind the diver's head, which made holding a horizontal trim with face forward extremely uncomfortable.

In answer to the OP's original question, you will most likely hook up with an instructor at some point and have this discussion face-to-face and at that time I hope you have a chance to dive several different wings.
 
I finished the dive upright in the water (so the broken valve was at the lowest possible point), much to the amusement of the rest of my team... they saluted me at every opportunity.

Gotta love buddies with a sense of humor. LOL
 
finished the dive upright in the water (so the broken valve was at the lowest possible point), much to the amusement of the rest of my team... they saluted me at every opportunity.

I agree with JeffG, buddies like that are to be treasured.
 
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