Double bladder question

[JeffG]

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/3615715-post200.html

LOL...I missed that.

(so if you normally dive in the ocean, you might want to consider adding some weight if you're diving fresh).

 

[SparticleBrane]

TDI has a Fundamentals of Technical Diving course. Sounds like you took that.

We are talking about a GUE-F course.

 

[Steve SDI/TDI HQ]

TDI has a Fundamentals of Technical Diving course. Sounds like you took that.

We are talking about a GUE-F course.

Nah, we have Into to Tech. If the OP took a course called fundamentals of anything, it wasn't one of ours.

 

[Gombessa]

Nah, we have Into to Tech. If the OP took a course called fundamentals of anything, it wasn't one of ours.

If the OP would speak up (he's been *curiously* silent about this point) about who his instructor was and where he took the course, it'd clear this brouhaha right up.

 

[Gombessa]

Nah, we have Into to Tech. If the OP took a course called fundamentals of anything, it wasn't one of ours.

Maybe some instructors are giving their own names to courses?

Elite Divers TDI Fundamentals of Technical Diving Class
ELITE DIVERS Tech Diving Int'l (TDI) FUNDAMENTALS OF TECHNICAL DIVING CLASS

 

[SparticleBrane]

Ok sorry; the course I'm thinking of is the one that Bobby Franklin came up with. A few people on our local NCDivers board call it "Fundies" occasionally as well.

 

[Dtaine]

hey all:

thanks for all of your great replys. for those of you that replied with real, actionable information; i am grateful. for those of you that thought that i was just 'trying to get noticed' or trying to start an argument; you really read me all wrong. i was looking for info!

and for that last segment of the population here that thought i was picking on them; i apologize if you're really that sensitive. no harm was intended, and i sure hope you didn't take it that way.

lastly, somebody here made the inference that i had something to do with the saltwater/freshwater buoyancy issue: not sure where you got that, but it wasn't me.

couple of notes:

-gear was borrowed, so i had to deal with what i had on hand
-yes, it was an 85# wing which i realize is huge! again, borrowed gear.
-my instructor, i think, was TDI certified

so for better or worse, i thank you all for your input. after spending 11 years with us navy specops i'm still wondering what the major trauma/difficulty is with the 'fundies' course, so please let me know if either i or my instructor missed something.

erik

Erik,

After reading this post I took another look at your other posts to see why this thread seemed to get a bit heated. After reviewing those posts I think it boils down to a bit of misunderstanding, and the fact that you seemed to find the answers you received unacceptable. I've quoted just about every one of your posts and below are the places where it seemed like you were trolling, confused people, or got people aggravated. I'll go through what I mean:

hey all:

i'm new to this group, but have posted some stuff in other forums. i recently got 'peer pressured' into taking a fundies class here recently and had a really good time. cool stuff!

so during the course of the class i had some questions (i've got that engineering type of brain so probably overthought some stuff) but one thing that i've heard that isn't DIR is the double bladders. did i misunderstand that or is it correct?

now please understand that the gear i used for the course was borrowed (twin steel 100's w/twin SP MK25/SP600's with a 5' hose (not my rig; i know it should be 7') on a deep outdoors SS backplate w/twin bladder 85# lift and a 12# triangle weight.

other than a couple of fit issues on day one, things went swimmingly. yet i still have the question: what's wrong with the double bladder? if i'd have to run a secondary LP hose to the power inflator on that one i'd understand. but what about it just sitting passively in it's pocket, ready for oral inflation if needed? seems like a good setup to me, but just wanted to ask.

thanks in advance for any help.

erik

Your first post was good, but it got people to think you had taken a GUE Fundamentals course, which it now appears you had not. If you had taken a GUE Fundamentals course with a twin bladder 85 lb wing it would've gone against principles of DIR diving, and it's why people were constantly asking who your instructor was. MaxBottomtime quoted the GUE website, a quote that is also present in the book Doing It Right: The Fundamentals of Better Diving page 86, "However, if, in fact, a diver does need more than 65 pounds of lift for diving doubles ... then they do not have a balanced rig and are an accident waiting to happen. ... The DIR approach avoids the use of dual BCs, and instead stresses proper balance between BC, cylinders, weighting and exposure suit." While your question as to why this is the DIR approach is a valid one to be asked (and has been asked many times), you unknowingly got people to think you had taken a GUE Fundamentals course that had ignored, or blatantly broken, an established DIR principle.

Now for your other posts:

i don't dive wet; i dive dry almost 100% of the time. i understand the redundancy of the drysuit, but the question remains; why not have that extra bladder in there?

if i was diving wet, wouldn't it be a great backup? (i'm not saying that this is a good idea, and i'm not going to do this, just saying...). so is there a specific reason for not having a second bladder? still waiting to hear... ...

so sorry, one last note:

PerronFord, you mentioned the drysuit as backup inflation. i don't know if you've ever tried it but it's skechty at best. why not use another bladder? just looking for info here... ...

he likes the double bladder. what he doesn't like is having it attached to some form of power inflator, which i totally agree with. why not have that little guy just snugged into a little pocket in the event that you need him? i agree with the fact that you can use a drysuit as a backup inflation device, but it also really sucks in relation to a real wing (I think that anybody that's had to do blue water deco using a drysuit only can attest to this). so why not have a backup wing? i'm dying here!

erik

you still haven't answered my question here (by the way love your pic!). Why on earth would you not have that secondary bladder? Not trying to start an argument here, but just really want to know why.

erik

well i might not need it, but why not take it? there's no redundancy issues, so what's the problem?

erik

well, think about this: a double bladder wing is about the same size or slightly larger than a regular wing. you don't have to take anything extra with you. you've got extra buoyancy via the wing and don't have to rely on the super-sketchy drysuit. now do you want to do your blue water deco with 200#+ of gear with a 'maybe' realiable drysuit or a second blader that you know is reliable?

all i'm saying here is that the wing is much more reliable and stable than the drysuit. so why would you rely on the drysuit when you know that you've got a fully functional wing on your back? even if this second wing fails you've got you're drysuit.

still waiting for good replies.

erik

to you orange diver:

i'd have my secondary wing. and if it shredded my secondary wing i'd be ******ed. that's life! but you know what, i'd have one more chance at life than the people that only had one wing did!

responses?

i agree with you on a lot of points. but the bottom line is that when **** goes to hell in a handbag, you're relying on your drysuit! Me, in the same situation, would rather rely on a bladder. so why would you do that? Not sure if you've ever done deco in a drysuit, but it sucks; all the more so with deco bottles. wouldn't you rather have a bladder? real control? somebobody give me an answer here!

you still haven't answered me. why would you not have a second wing? and let's not be pissy with the drysuit/liftbag/buddy responses. i'm not looking for some 'DIR' response to this query; i'm looking for a real world answer as to why this is not 'DIR' and what the real reason is. again, still waiting for intelligent responses...

thanks.

erik

It's clear that you just didn't accept the answers you were receiving, you implied that those who had posted hadn't given "good" or "intelligent" information. If you want a discussion to be friendly, you at least have to put some effort into being polite. I'm not posting to annoy you or provoke further arguing, I'm posting this to point out the fact that one of the reasons this thread went downhill was how you worded things and how you brushed off information that had been given.

That being said I wish you well in your diving and I would definitely recommend going over to GUE's website, or picking up a copy of Doing It Right: The Fundamentals of Better Diving because the resources there will answer a lot of questions about the DIR approach, making discussions like this one easier and more informative for everyone involved.

Just my 2 psi,

Dave

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

If I dive a double bladder can I move up to a venti latte? The p-valve is really an unnecessary failure point.

 

[rainman_02]

The only gas that should be in your wing is the gas needed to offset the weight of the gas in your tanks. Your drysuit should be used to compensate for depth and should be neutral (only changes to drysuit buoyancy would be due to ascending or descending). At the end of the dive, with 500psi in your tanks you should be able to hold a 10' stop with no gas in your wing and comfortable (no squeeze) in your suit.

 

[Rick Murchison]

...At the end of the dive, with 500psi in your tanks you should be able to hold a 10' stop with no gas in your wing and comfortable (no squeeze) in your suit.

Hmmm... I prefer to be able to maintain neutral buoyancy all the way to the surface. And with less than 500 psi...
Rick