Don't know what happened

[Dody]

Rather than argue over hand swimming, why not get to a pool and prove to yourself the purported benefit of arm swimming - perhaps in combination with the frog kicking that you indicated you used to attempt a sprint during the incident?

I myself will use an arm stroke or two in certain situations, but I have never been convinced it is an efficient means to move over any considerable distance when wearing scuba gear (and decent fins). In addition, and you should have been taught this in your training: Arm swimming is a GREAT way to rip your buddy's regulator from their mouth when you accidentally catch their second stage hose loop. For that reason alone, it is not generally a good practice.

I agree . But I am not sure that it would not make a difference in an emergency for 2/3 minutes. Even 20% more speed can make a difference.

 

[OTF]

Great info @Angelo Farina , thanks.

While Dody is being defensive and does need to build up some more experience, it is also POSSIBLE that something unusual was slowing him down and any one of us would have been separated.

He should go for another dive and focus on replicating, identifying, or fixing the problem.

- He mentioned a new wetsuit, maybe it was constricting and making it hard to swim. If other new gear was involved maybe something else was causing extra drag or bad trim.
- Maybe he really was caught in a different current than the others. It really is possible.
- Maybe something totally weird... like he got a piece of fishing line around his tank valve for a while and didn't notice
- Could be trim, adjustment, and practice in the gear. I remember my first time in doubles not understanding how my instructor could possibly cruise so much faster than me with minimal effort while I was chugging flutter kicks to keep up. Trim and balance matter a lot.

In any case, learning to recognize and solve the problem is necessary. He should have been able to figure it out then, but it's good that he's trying now. Better than a lot of people do.

 

[Dody]

Regarding using arms. In reality al lot of studies have been done for competitive finned swimmers. Most of these studies were done in Russia in the seventies and eighties.
Here I summarise some of the results, if required I could search for the relevant publications (I have them stored somewhere, but it is almost 30 years I am not reading them - which also means that I did not read more modern studies, if they have ben done).
The seventies was when the first fiberglass and carbon fiber fins appeared, which changed strongly the kicking style, as these fins store a lot of elastic energy and later release it with minimal mechanical loss, whilst rubber and plastic fins waste most the elastic energy stored.
Furthermore the first monofins appeared, making the dolphin kicking style a viable alternative to alternate flutter kicking.
Finally, a new specialty appear in finned swimming competitions, called underwater speed, where the athletes employ a small air tank held with hands in front of them.
Here the results:
1) using arms for swimming is advantageous for surface swimming and with separate fins (either traditional or carbon-fiber)
2) with a monofin in surface swimming, instead, it is advantageous to keep the arms straight forward and strictly together.
3) with separate fins or with a monofin, in underwater speed competitions (with an air tank), it is always advantageous to keep the arms straight forward and close together, pushing the tank in front of you, even if using traditional flutter kick. Placing it on the back, so you can use your arms for swimming, is generally detrimental.
4) with traditional rubber or plastic fins, in apnoea competitions, using the arms becomes advantageous.
5) with fiberglass or carbon-fiber fins the benefit of using arms in underwater swimming in apnoea is almost entirely lost.

Conclusions: for deep free divers, using arms is still a technique which is often used, particularly if not using a monofin or when the fins are traditional rubber or plastic.
For scuba divers, using arms is generally not recommended, better to remove the tank form the back and pushing it in front of you with straight arms, for better hydrodynamics.

That’s the navy right? Because I don’t see myself removing my tank when I am fighting current.

 

[Dody]

Great info @Angelo Farina , thanks.

While Dody is being defensive and does need to build up some more experience, it is also POSSIBLE that something unusual was slowing him down and any one of us would have been separated.

He should go for another dive and focus on replicating, identifying, or fixing the problem.

- He mentioned a new wetsuit, maybe it was constricting and making it hard to swim. If other new gear was involved maybe something else was causing extra drag or bad trim.
- Maybe he really was caught in a different current than the others. It really is possible.
- Maybe something totally weird... like he got a piece of fishing line around his tank valve for a while and didn't notice
- Could be trim, adjustment, and practice in the gear. I remember my first time in doubles not understanding how my instructor could possibly cruise so much faster than me with minimal effort while I was chugging flutter kicks to keep up. Trim and balance matter a lot.

In any case, learning to recognize and solve the problem is necessary. He should have been able to figure it out then, but it's good that he's trying now. Better than a lot of people do.

Thank you.

 

[boulderjohn]

A little while ago I quoted you as saying that when you identify a potential flaw in your training, you take a course to correct it. Here are some other quotes of yours to contemplate.

An expert kicking training might be needed

I don't think that buyoancy or trim have anything to do with the problem I had today. I don't think my flutter kick technique has either. Long gone are the day I was bicycling kicking back in November

3) Finning technique? I really doubt that one.

 

[scubadada]

This is going into the right direction. Out of my 69 dives, less than 10 were training dives. Others, I did not believe that I should log them.
I have dived independently and planning everything (with a less experienced buddy) maybe 30 times.
I have only dived in Cape Verde and South of France. Boat, beach, shore dives but only 3 times with strong current.
I dive almost every week. Building up knowledge and experience. Trying to get better all the time. As I said, I don’t care about C-card. Just being more and more in control.
I know I still have a long learning curve. But standards are the minimum requirements for every human activity. And if you tick all the boxes and do even more, you don’t want to hear that you need to do a 1000 more dives when a problem happens. You want a structured reasoning, beyond, you don’t have enough experience. Some of the guys that have 100 dives will always think that others with 80 are inept. You can replace 100 by 1000 and 80 by 200. This is an endless debate.

Hi @Dody

OW and AOW, alone, are 9 training dives...

You have been defensive and argumentative in several other threads in which you have participated and appeared to request advice. You seem to over emphasize the value of book knowledge over experience. It seems you frequently reject advice because you have already made up your mind.

Best of luck in your diving.

 

[eleniel]

Hi @Dody

OW and AOW, alone, are 9 training dives...

You have been defensive and argumentative in several other threads in which you have participated and appeared to request advice. You seem to over emphasize the value of book knowledge over experience. It seems you frequently reject advice because you have already made up your mind.

Best of luck in your diving.

With SSI he could, in theory, pull off AOW without adding additional training dives (he needs the regular OW dives + 4 specialty courses + 24 total logged dives. He could do specialities that don't require actual diving) but then he'd still need to do the dives for the rescue course. SSI stress/rescue only takes 3 training dives so in theory he could've done the OW dives (4), specialties with no dive requirement, and stress/rescue (3) = total training dives 7 so far
Dive guide (guide + science of diving = divemaster, assuming number of total dives and specialties are met) only requires 3 dives.

So in theory, he could be a divemaster having only done 10 training dives, as long as he completed enough specialties and recreational logged dives.
It's still not possible for him to do it in "less than 10" training dives.

 

[Esprise Me]

Sometimes the advice you get isn't the advice you asked for. But sometimes the advice you asked for isn't the advice you need.

I'm probably not the person to help you solve this mystery, but I do think your odds of getting to the bottom of it would improve if you would open your mind to what the more experienced folks here are saying.

 

[Glenn Williams]

Is he a dive master or a master diver? I have less than 100 dives and have taken stress rescue, AOW, and am a master diver. Which means I am a non compensated recreational diver. A dive master is able to teach and be compensated for doing so.

Is he mistaken in calling himself a dive master instead of a master diver?

Reason I ask is, I was contemplating becoming a dive master to help out my local shop and there was more training involved. I’m happy currently just being a master diver.

Anyway just curious as his dives are low as are mine. I know enough to be dangerous. Nowhere near ready to take responsibility for other folks yet.

Glenn

 

[boulderjohn]

Is he a dive master or a master diver? I have less than 100 dives and have taken stress rescue, AOW, and am a master diver. Which means I am a non compensated recreational diver. A dive master is able to teach and be compensated for doing so.

Is he mistaken in calling himself a dive master instead of a master diver?

Reason I ask is, I was contemplating becoming a dive master to help out my local shop and there was more training involved. I’m happy currently just being a master diver.

Anyway just curious as his dives are low as are mine. I know enough to be dangerous. Nowhere near ready to take responsibility for other folks yet.

Glenn

If you read the thread, you will see that he is indeed a divemaster, not a master diver. He is certified and insured to do the work he talked about.

He has 69 total dives, and he has determined during those dives that he won't learn anything with more experience than that.