Donation of primary or secondary?

[billt4sf]

I sure have seen a number of "octos" fallen from their perches in the "golden triangle" and dragging along in the sand. Makes me wonder how often they have been used or practiced with in water, especially if they are rental gear. I'd bet not too damn often! I wonder what percentage of them actually work.

Another issue with "octos" is that the second stages are typically configured to be in the primary diver's mouth, not in another divers mouth, meaning that the hose will have to be turned 180 deg to get in a receiver's mouth. And with the typically short hose octo .... the donor and receiver are going to need to hold on to one another.

I definitely encourage people to actually try sharing air in this situation.

- Bill

 

[AJ]

so now "because we always did it that way" is now an acceptable excuse for not adopting "best practices"?

No, but adding complexity wihout proper knowledge and training is'nt a good idea either or is it?

 

[Bob DBF]

oes not act according to the way YOU were trained? It seems to me that the OOA diver will usually determine what happens. If he or she signals and waits patiently for you to respond, you get to follow your training. If not, you have to react to whatever that diver is doing.

I just react to the situation and act accordingly, I was trained to work the problem and solve it. Any diver should be able to have his reg kicked or taken out of their mouth and then calmly and deliberately switch to their backup. If not, it's time to start practicing.

Since I use a bungeed backup now, I tell anyone I dive with that if I don't respond to an OOA sign, or you don't have the time to ask, just take the reg from mouth, I'll figure it out. It usually leads to a discussion of why I wear my rig and dive the way I do.


Bob

 

[tbone1004]

No, but adding complexity wihout proper knowledge and training is'nt a good idea either or is it?

the argument for primary donate is that is a less complex gear configuration as well as a less complex OOA protocol.

@Neilwood so what is your recommendation on people that want to purchase a BCD with an AirII? Pay several hundred dollars to redo training on primary donate? There is no "primary donate specialty"

 

[MichaelMc]

I sure have seen a number of "octos" fallen from their perches in the "golden triangle" and dragging along in the sand.

YES. The 'octo plan works great if properly stowed' argument is very at odds with the video evidence of what basic class students look like in the water. Having their primary kicked out of their mouth will create a personal crisis as they search for the octo that is no longer where they put it. Having to actually donate it to an out of air buddy will be an even bigger kerfuffel.

My back up air is always right under my chin, on a bungee necklace.

Putting a working regulator into their mouth and breathing off of it is one of the VERY first things any diver is taught. Before OOA, Navigation, SMB, etc. All OW students should be very comfortable and proficient with that basic act.

Basic student are not yet uber calm individuals underwater. Having their backup air stay where they left it, like under their chin, is a great idea. Plus, by then donating primary, that makes their response in OOA very easy, even if the panicked OOA diver takes the reg out of their mouth.

Any diver should be able to have his reg kicked or taken out of their mouth and then calmly and deliberately switch to their backup. If not, it's time to start practicing.

Or also change how they stow it so that it stays there. Bungee solves that issue in a way that improves OOA donate. And in the extreme lets you get to your backup air with no hands.

 

[boulderjohn]

@Neilwood so what is your recommendation on people that want to purchase a BCD with an AirII? Pay several hundred dollars to redo training on primary donate? There is no "primary donate specialty"

People are acting like learning donation technique amounts to rocket science. It doesn't. You can learn any method you want to learn pretty quickly. That is actually my point in the question I just asked again. If someone comes up to you while OOA and does something you have never practiced, I expect you will be able to respond appropriately if you just keep your head, even though you have never practiced it. If someone grabs at your primary, it does not take a whole lot of skill to open your mouth so you don't lose your teeth and reach for your alternate.

 

[Storker]

the argument for primary donate is that is a less complex gear configuration as well as a less complex OOA protocol.

Is it? The classic hog setup for primary donate does IMO introduce more complexity than a standard octo setup does. IME there's a much bigger risk of tangled hoses with the former, and it really isn't compatible with wearing a snorkel. So - again IMO - it requires a better trained diver with better routines than the average resort diver to give the diver a net advantage.

 

[Lorenzoid]

At the end of the day, the success and failure of both systems comes down to training and following that training - that is the crux of my point.

I have been following this thread, and that is my thinking on the question. Pick a system--whichever--and train train train to do it that way. Practice it often. Maintain the gear and make sure it works.

Nevertheless, part of one's training should include to expect the unexpected--what to do if the OOA diver insists on something else. I think one can train for that, too.

 

[boulderjohn]

Is it? The classic hog setup for primary donate does IMO introduce more complexity than a standard octo setup does. IME there's a much bigger risk of tangled hoses with the former, and it really isn't compatible with wearing a snorkel. So - again IMO - it requires a better trained diver with better routines than the average resort diver to give the diver a net advantage.

The problem with primary donate and a snorkel only exists in the case of a HOG-looped long hose. People who use that configuration solve that problem by not wearing a snorkel while they are diving. A snorkel is not a whole lot of help while you are under water anyway.

Whether you are talking about an AirII configuration or the bungeed regulator under the chin, you have eliminated the option of the OOA diver taking anything but the primary, so it is very much simpler in that case.

I have no idea why there would be an added problem with tangled hoses. What hoses are going to get tangled?

 

[Storker]

What do you do when the OOA diver does not act according to the way YOU were trained?

I'm hazarding a guess that you're - again - alluding to the "primary grab" practice I've heard about but never experienced. To be honest, I've never had to donate gas in anger, either...

But no matter how I'm set up, I know where my secondary is. It may take me a half-second longer to grab my octo and stuff it in my gob than it would take me to grab my BO and stuff it in my gob. I can't see that there'd be a significant difference between those two situations.