Does a dive flag protect you? Think again.

[Missdirected]

danvolker: I do not believe anyone on this board should be doing a charitable act, for the praise or adulation of strangers. They should certainly not get involved with the dive flag issue because of the liklihood I, or you, would say nice things about them...they should be doing something like getting legislation against dangerous boaters, because it is the RIGHT THING TO DO. /end

:huh: They are doing something. One must start somewhere. Suggesting that because one signed a petition to help raise boater awareness on dive flags they must be looking for praise is thick, to say the least.

Boater awareness on dive flags has long been an issue. If people can finally come together and get some things done - great. Saying that those same people make you want to puke because they are not doing it your way... :doh:

Granted you will always have some that do know what a dive flag means and they will probably continue their behavior. However, you have more that are just clueless.

Danvolker: Regarding more education....have you ever gone to "school" for a speeding ticket? Please don't tell me that the class you took had any significant impact on the driving you did afterwords. Maybe finding a good attorney will have an impact, or a radar detector...but this is not the impact desired by the state. /end

That class is a penalty class. Not the same as I am speaking of. To clarify, I stated that requiring a USCG class when one purchases a boat might be a good idea. Just the same as when one takes to the road in a car - they are required to pass an examination to be sure they understand the rules of the road.

As for your logic of finding an attorney instead of educating people initially well isn't that what the good doctor did? Seriously flawed logic there.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I agree with Dan that strict enforcement and large fines are required. However, the suggestion to legislatively disallow a boat running at high speed down a reef line is completely unworkable, due to enforcement difficulties. Documenting the location of "reef lines" and disseminating that information to ignorant and careless recreational boaters is clearly impractical.

We need very large fines for BOATERS and DIVERS who violate the dive flag laws. Many Florida divers do not follow the laws and if we fail to do it, then we can not expect boaters to comply either. There is very little money for enforcement of the dive flag laws, so we need to have serious fines that will serve as a deterent to reckless behavoir.

I personally had a very bad experieince this fall with a commercial dive boat operator (Narcosis Dive Charters in West Palm Beach) who deliberately violated my boat's dive flag radius and intentionally threatened the safety of me and my family while we were in the water. It is not just recreational boaters who present a danger to divers.

As I re-read the florida flag laws, it is interesting to note that tech diving below 300 feet would seem to be illegal in Florida state waters, because the diver woud be more than 100 yards from his dive flag. Is that correct?

 

[danvolker]

Danvolker: Regarding more education....have you ever gone to "school" for a speeding ticket? Please don't tell me that the class you took had any significant impact on the driving you did afterwords. Maybe finding a good attorney will have an impact, or a radar detector...but this is not the impact desired by the state. /end

That class is a penalty class. Not the same as I am speaking of. To clarify, I stated that requiring a USCG class when one purchases a boat might be a good idea. Just the same as when one takes to the road in a car - they are required to pass an examination to be sure they understand the rules of the road.

As for your logic of finding an attorney instead of educating people initially well isn't that what the good doctor did? Seriously flawed logic there.

I think that if I wrote about something being white, you would start off on a tangent about how I was talking about black.....in any event, the "example" of the ticket class is not in reference to your idea of more education prior to getting a boat license---it is about how a "class" will not change a person's behavior, if they WANT to do something contrary to the class....If you like going 80mph in a 65 mph zone, your being forced to take the class will most likely have zero chance of changing your speeding behavior. That was my point.

For your point, I would extend this to mean that in the education and initial driver testing and licensing for an automobile, if a person likes going fast with their dad driving, or their older friends driving, then when they start to drive, they are going to consider the admonitions in the state driving text, as ridiculous, and they will speed anyway.

When they end up with speeding tickets, which are really just an annoyance, they will find a way to beat the tickets....this is the behavior of American drivers ( I add that because I do not want you to think I am advocating that people do this---I am just saying that this is what happens).

Back to my point....a boater that does not care about divers, is not going to "ruin" his day out on the boat, by wasting time looking out for dive flags..he has people on his boat to talk to, or fish to look for, or gps marks to read on the screen, or many other potential things he would rather do than waste his time looking for dive flags. You can hold up a sign in front of him all you want..he already knows what it means...he just does not care about it...and nothing you are going to tell him or show him will change this.....Maybe, there is a 1 or 2 percent of the new boating population that really , honestly has never heard of dive flags, or what they mean....as these people probably have severe learning disabilities, fixing this may go more toward having a real exam that a chimpanzee could not pass .

For all the boaters that willfully ignore the flag laws ( read that as the vast majority of offending boaters), you need serious teeth in the law.


And I am not usually FOR more government. I wish driving on American roads was more like it is in Italy, where speed limits really are not meant to mean much ( I have passed an Italian cop at 165 Kph in a 90kph zone, and he waved with a big smile...stop signs don't mean stop, and the whole deal there, is driving with skill, and not driving in a manner Italians consider recklass ( and I agree with them 100%)....If you get picked up driving drunk there, they will throw away the key--and this is the right way to be.
Italians take pride in their driving skills, and will go to great trouble to protect pedestrians and cyclists on the road.....ie, an Italian motorist going fast on the road overlooking the Amalfi coast, coming to a cyclist on the same road, would practically kill them self to ensure the safety of the cyclist..and pedestrians are treated the same by motorists there.....whereas here, many motorists enjoy "almost" hitting cyclists, and offer little or no courtesy to them.....
But in America, we have a different culture. People with terrible driving skills are allowed on the road, whereas in Italy they themselves would choose NOT to drive.
On the water, here, we have boaters driving with no skills, and no consideration for the recklassness of their actions. This is cultural, part of the sick "entitlement attitude" of so many. Many decades of bad behavior, have shown that this is one place where people need to be pushed into driving boats in a safe manner, because they repeatedly choose NOT to, the way things are. Huge numbers of boaters, at least in south Florida, have no consideration for the recklassness of their actions, and this can only be changed by "FEAR OF SEVERE PUNISHMENT".

Regards,
Dan V

 

[NudeDiver]

YouTube - boat collision

No one ever went broke by betting on stupidity.

But gee - given that some people can't manage to avoid hitting a great big boat coming at them, what makes anyone think they can (or will) avoid a little bitty diver in the water??

As some previous poster said - if you're betting your safety on modifying someone else's behavior, you're not betting wisely. You can't control someone else's behavior. All you can do is control your own - so you might want to place your bets accordingly.

 

[danvolker]

No one ever went broke by betting on stupidity.

Perfect video....shows how little chance a dive flag has to work for many boaters, as in this case, the boat(s) are much larger than a flag.....but at least here, the damage done is punitive in it's own way....

Thanks
Dan

 

[D_B]

All this talk of speeding tickets, drivers knowing about speed limits, the law, and doing it anyway , and such , amuses me .. how can this even be remotly considered similar ?

...... You do not have a license to drive a boat, you need no training, you do not need to know what any of the signs mean ... WHY?

You think maybe fixing that might help?

 

[NudeDiver]

...... You do not have a license to drive a boat...

It's a bigger joke than that. A brand new driver can get in a 30 foot RV, and tow a big-assed boat behind it, with no special training WHATSOEVER. That's sixty feet and multiple tons of hard-to-control metal flying down the highway, taking out everything its its path should the driver lose control. No special training or license. Yeah, sure, if you get one BIG ENOUGH, some special requirements start to kick in, but for the most part, you can put a brand new driver in a vehicle that they are in no way trained or equipped to drive down the public highways.

However, if that same new driver wants to ride a pissant 250cc motorcycle - well, then he/she needs a special endorsement, special training, special test, etc. Yes, that's little Johnny on his puny ass two wheeler (several hundred pounds) - going down the road, most likely only going to injury or kill himself, if he should lose control.

Why is this? Because motorcycles are perceived to be more dangerous than big-assed RVs pulling big-assed trailers - that and the RV/boat lobbies obviously have more power than the motorcycle lobby. It's no wonder why the boat lobby has managed to fight off any kind of government intervention. Boats and RVs are typically bought by people with money to burn, and their lobby reflects this fact.

 

[D_B]

that MH driver still has more going than a boater ... he still knows the rules of the road (um, stay right?) and what all the signs mean

 

[NudeDiver]

that MH driver still has more going than a boater ... he still knows the rules of the road (um, stay right?) and what all the signs mean

Oh please. Based on what I've seen, these two concepts are completely foreign to most drivers, no matter what they're driving.

 

[danvolker]

Dan V ... if you can drive a boat without a license, and without any training ..... what makes you think that they even know what a dive flag is ?

Required training is the answer

Em's sig line is a thought ... Dive Flag Awareness

DB,
The thing is, I have been diving a really long time here in s Florida, and have witnessed an awful lot of boating behaviors ....and there is usually a big difference between the actions of a boater who just plain does not know any better, and the actions of a boater who does not care...and what I am saying, is that the offending boaters in most dive flag incursions, knew better--but they did not care....and education will not change these people.

From the reports which have come out about this latest tragedy, the "Dirtbag Doctor Incident", he would absolutely have known about what a dive flag meant....there is no contesting this.
The liklihood is, that we will find he felt he had something better to be doing, than looking out for dive flags.

The dirtbag doc could be a posterboy for what is wrong in boating, and for how little education will help---now, add losing your boat and a maybe a few years of your life to jail, and then maybe guys like the dirtbag doc will think twice before deciding that flags are of no importance....Get the big penalty threatening the bad boating behavior, and THEN educating boaters with this will help.

Regards,
Dan

p.s.
I am not in any way opposed to required training for boaters. I just think this would not do much to effect the main offenders of dive flag incursions. There is the running into other boats in the marina or waterside restaurant, the speeding in manatee zones ( usually dealt with pretty quickly by law enforcement ), and plenty of other gems we are gifted with by new boaters without a clue. But just remember how terrible our average American automobile drivers are, and they have been forced to take tests and to pass an exam.