Some very prominent dive experts have gather some very useful data from David Shaw's tragic dive. And the video obtained will likely save someone's life someday although we won't ever know that.
Doc Deep dies during dive.
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Some very prominent dive experts have gather some very useful data from David Shaw's tragic dive. And the video obtained will likely save someone's life someday although we won't ever know that.
---------- Post added August 17th, 2015 at 07:38 PM ----------
Thread reopened... the discussion on setting records has been moved here.
--
This thread is closed for moderation. Many of you will see your posts disappear.
- All the blamestorming, righteous pontification, character assassinations, and the responses to them will be gone.
- Condolences will be gone.
- "Me too" posts will be gone.
- Posts with nothing to add will be gone.
- Off-topic posts will be gone.
This forum is for accident prevention. The methodology is action based. The essential question: What actions led to the mishap? The answers: the actions that will prevent a like mishap in the future.
Actions... not attitudes, or egos, or personality, or character or even experience.
Actions.
Lets review the rules:
And let's review what is meant by "blamestorming":
Rick
---------- Post added August 17th, 2015 at 06:18 PM ----------
I know there's this deep seated human desire to know what underlies the decision that led to the bad action - it's so much easier if we can point to some defect in training, lack of experience, personality, motive, thought processes, etc, etc, ad nauseum, but it just doesn't matter. You can find well trained, experienced, mentally stable, smart, healthy, people screwing up a perfectly planned dive and dying because they made a fatal mistake, they did "A." If action "A" resulted in the mishap, and Action "B" will prevent it in the future, all anyone really needs to know is that you don't do "A" and you do do "B"
Rick
A ScubaBoard Staff Message...
--
A ScubaBoard Staff Message...
- All the blamestorming, righteous pontification, character assassinations, and the responses to them will be gone.
- Condolences will be gone.
- "Me too" posts will be gone.
- Posts with nothing to add will be gone.
- Off-topic posts will be gone.
This forum is for accident prevention. The methodology is action based. The essential question: What actions led to the mishap? The answers: the actions that will prevent a like mishap in the future.
Actions... not attitudes, or egos, or personality, or character or even experience.
Actions.
Lets review the rules:
And let's review what is meant by "blamestorming":
--
Rick
---------- Post added August 17th, 2015 at 06:18 PM ----------
There is no need to criticize the deceased diver to find out what the diver did that caused the mishap. Nor is there any need to get all wound up trying to figure out why... the "why?" just doesn't matter, so long as the *action* that caused the mishap is properly identified and isn't repeated.
I know there's this deep seated human desire to know what underlies the decision that led to the bad action - it's so much easier if we can point to some defect in training, lack of experience, personality, motive, thought processes, etc, etc, ad nauseum, but it just doesn't matter. You can find well trained, experienced, mentally stable, smart, healthy, people screwing up a perfectly planned dive and dying because they made a fatal mistake, they did "A." If action "A" resulted in the mishap, and Action "B" will prevent it in the future, all anyone really needs to know is that you don't do "A" and you do do "B"
Rick
Last edited:
apostle228
Registered
I hope they recover his body and post the results of his computer/gopro soon. I am very interested to see what went wrong.
Hetland
Contributor
Does anyone know what volume of gas he planned to take? I show MASSIVE amounts of gas to spend even a few seconds at that depth.
Good job. Assuming they are indeed reading this thread, no doubt calling them "a bunch of clowns" will surely nudge them in the right direction.
scagrotto
Contributor
Agreed. The details of a dive plan to set a record are beyond most of us, but the philosophy of setting records isn't.
I got a notification that somebody liked a post of mine that lists the thread as "hidden content". It seems that not only am I not allowed to read a post I wrote, I'm not even permitted to know the title of the thread it's in.
More details about the deep dive at the article below. Guy Garman did not want his body recovered if anything went wrong, so we may never know what happened. Does that mean that they will they just cut the line?
'Stellar diver' disappears into the deep - News - Virgin Islands Daily News
'Stellar diver' disappears into the deep
By GERRY YANDEL (Daily News Staff)
Published: August 17, 2015
The last time diver Kip Garman would see his father, Dr. Guy Garman - the prominent ear, nose and throat physician on St. Croix - would be when they were about 200 feet underwater Saturday morning and Guy Garman was descending to 1,200 feet in pursuit of a deep dive world record.
The doctor planned his record attempt for about two years, but - with his 20-year-old son as one of the two support divers who took him down on the initial descent - Guy Garman never came back up.
He is presumed to be dead, though his body was not recovered following a search Saturday morning and into the afternoon of the dive area, just off Long Reach, the barrier reef that acts as a breakwater outside Christiansted Harbor.
"He never made it back. They stayed as long as they could," Capt. Ed Buckley, referring to the support divers expecting Garman to return from the bottom to an air station at about 350 feet on the dive line.
"They left some of the tanks tied off along the line, so even if he was running really late and they had to leave...," Buckley said, his voice trailing off.
"We kept deep divers in the water looking for anything, but they never saw the first bubble from him," he said.
Buckley is the owner of St. Croix Ultimate Bluewater Adventures, the place where Garman began his training doing what he loved. Buckley captained the dive boat Saturday morning, and he said Garman went into the water at 6 a.m., right on schedule.
In addition to seven tanks Garman was wearing, 28 other tanks were prepared and ready to be used during the dive that was scheduled to last 10 hours and 25 minutes.
In addition to the dive boat, two other vessels were at the site, and Garman's wife also was on hand for the record-breaking attempt.
The previous record for a deep scuba dive was 1,090 feet - set in September by 41-year-old Ahmed Gabr, an Egyptian who set the mark in the Red Sea.
Detailed planning
Guy Garman had had the dive line installed himself - a 1,300-foot line sunk into the sea floor with a 250-pound anchor - and he had meticulously planned the record attempt.
Buckley said the physician had far surpassed his trainers - whose highest-rated level is at 65 meters, or about 215 feet.
"He just advanced so far beyond that," Buckley said. "His own research and planning and plotting put him well above the level of the deep instructors he got certified with."
Garman planned his record attempt to the last detail.
"He'd gone over everything very meticulously with all the support staff," Buckley said. "He'd tell them, "If I have a seizure, this is what you do. If this happens, this is what you do.'
"He was treating the whole thing as being a scientist, not a recreational thing," Buckley said. "He had personally talked to anyone who had made a serious attempt like that, the super deep divers, the ones who go deeper than 900 or 1,000 feet. Most of them kept their preparation plans proprietary. Garman said he was going to release his plans."
The dive
Garman's last deep dive was in early April, when he made the solitary descent to 815 feet - a depth that only about a dozen deep divers in the world have reached.
In a deep dive, once Garman gets in the water, the support divers do all the work - holding him so he doesn't have to exert against the current and dropping to 200 feet before letting him go.
"They do a bubble check and make sure nothing is leaking," Buckley said.
For Saturday's dive, Garman had three oversized "monster" tanks and four double tanks, and he was wearing three computers and a videocamera, according to Buckley.
Kip Garman and another diver took Guy Garman down the dive line, letting him breathe off their tanks so he could conserve his special mixtures of gas needed for the deep dive.
From the 200-foot mark, Garman's goal was to drop to the 1,200-foot mark and then ascend to the 350-foot mark as quickly as possible.
"He's trying to minimize the amount of time he's down there with that kind of pressure," Buckley said.
Besides the videocamera and computers to verify that Garman had reached the record mark, he also had to mark the dive line.
"He also had a clip-on little marker that he would have clipped on the line," Buckley said. "Then we go back and retrieve that line and then you can measure. That's what it would take to satisfy the Guinness people that it was a true record."
From the time Garman got in the water to the bottom and then back up to the 350-foot mark was estimated at 38 minutes.
The rest of the dive was scheduled to take almost 10 hours as Garman gradually makes his way to the surface - stopping every 10 feet.
"At that point, it is all decompression," Buckley said "At various spots along the way they do gas switches to increase the amount of oxygen and decrease the amount of nitrogen.
"There are two divers at all times with him, swapping out tanks," Buckley said. "They had hot soup, medical help available, lots of support staff ready once he got back into shallower range. We will probably not ever know what happened."
Recovery efforts
After he never reappeared Saturday morning, search crews patrolled the harbor looking for signs of Garman. He was tethered to the dive line, so there is little possibility that his body surfaced elsewhere.
Buckley said the discussions he has been involved in have been about recovering Garman's body later this week.
One thing that makes recovery difficult is the 250-pound anchor embedded in the sea floor as well as all the equipment attached to it and the tanks Garman was wearing, which he said probably weighs close to 700 pounds.
The other thing that may be delaying the recovery is some of Garman's final instructions.
"His wishes were that if something went wrong the body not be retrieved," Buckley said. "That is his family's wishes as well. I'm not sure what the legal ramifications are."
On Sunday afternoon, Buckley said he and some of his staff were sipping mimosas somewhere on the Christiansted boardwalk, trying to unwind from the stress and mental fatigue of losing their good friend in such an agonizing way.
"We're not only losing a friend, we're losing a colleague and a stellar diver, especially somebody who researched the deep diving world," Buckley said. "And the island is losing an awesome physician. The whole island loses in that respect."
- Contact Gerry Yandel at 714-9106 or email gyandel@dailynews.vi.
'Stellar diver' disappears into the deep - News - Virgin Islands Daily News
'Stellar diver' disappears into the deep
By GERRY YANDEL (Daily News Staff)
Published: August 17, 2015
The last time diver Kip Garman would see his father, Dr. Guy Garman - the prominent ear, nose and throat physician on St. Croix - would be when they were about 200 feet underwater Saturday morning and Guy Garman was descending to 1,200 feet in pursuit of a deep dive world record.
The doctor planned his record attempt for about two years, but - with his 20-year-old son as one of the two support divers who took him down on the initial descent - Guy Garman never came back up.
He is presumed to be dead, though his body was not recovered following a search Saturday morning and into the afternoon of the dive area, just off Long Reach, the barrier reef that acts as a breakwater outside Christiansted Harbor.
"He never made it back. They stayed as long as they could," Capt. Ed Buckley, referring to the support divers expecting Garman to return from the bottom to an air station at about 350 feet on the dive line.
"They left some of the tanks tied off along the line, so even if he was running really late and they had to leave...," Buckley said, his voice trailing off.
"We kept deep divers in the water looking for anything, but they never saw the first bubble from him," he said.
Buckley is the owner of St. Croix Ultimate Bluewater Adventures, the place where Garman began his training doing what he loved. Buckley captained the dive boat Saturday morning, and he said Garman went into the water at 6 a.m., right on schedule.
In addition to seven tanks Garman was wearing, 28 other tanks were prepared and ready to be used during the dive that was scheduled to last 10 hours and 25 minutes.
In addition to the dive boat, two other vessels were at the site, and Garman's wife also was on hand for the record-breaking attempt.
The previous record for a deep scuba dive was 1,090 feet - set in September by 41-year-old Ahmed Gabr, an Egyptian who set the mark in the Red Sea.
Detailed planning
Guy Garman had had the dive line installed himself - a 1,300-foot line sunk into the sea floor with a 250-pound anchor - and he had meticulously planned the record attempt.
Buckley said the physician had far surpassed his trainers - whose highest-rated level is at 65 meters, or about 215 feet.
"He just advanced so far beyond that," Buckley said. "His own research and planning and plotting put him well above the level of the deep instructors he got certified with."
Garman planned his record attempt to the last detail.
"He'd gone over everything very meticulously with all the support staff," Buckley said. "He'd tell them, "If I have a seizure, this is what you do. If this happens, this is what you do.'
"He was treating the whole thing as being a scientist, not a recreational thing," Buckley said. "He had personally talked to anyone who had made a serious attempt like that, the super deep divers, the ones who go deeper than 900 or 1,000 feet. Most of them kept their preparation plans proprietary. Garman said he was going to release his plans."
The dive
Garman's last deep dive was in early April, when he made the solitary descent to 815 feet - a depth that only about a dozen deep divers in the world have reached.
In a deep dive, once Garman gets in the water, the support divers do all the work - holding him so he doesn't have to exert against the current and dropping to 200 feet before letting him go.
"They do a bubble check and make sure nothing is leaking," Buckley said.
For Saturday's dive, Garman had three oversized "monster" tanks and four double tanks, and he was wearing three computers and a videocamera, according to Buckley.
Kip Garman and another diver took Guy Garman down the dive line, letting him breathe off their tanks so he could conserve his special mixtures of gas needed for the deep dive.
From the 200-foot mark, Garman's goal was to drop to the 1,200-foot mark and then ascend to the 350-foot mark as quickly as possible.
"He's trying to minimize the amount of time he's down there with that kind of pressure," Buckley said.
Besides the videocamera and computers to verify that Garman had reached the record mark, he also had to mark the dive line.
"He also had a clip-on little marker that he would have clipped on the line," Buckley said. "Then we go back and retrieve that line and then you can measure. That's what it would take to satisfy the Guinness people that it was a true record."
From the time Garman got in the water to the bottom and then back up to the 350-foot mark was estimated at 38 minutes.
The rest of the dive was scheduled to take almost 10 hours as Garman gradually makes his way to the surface - stopping every 10 feet.
"At that point, it is all decompression," Buckley said "At various spots along the way they do gas switches to increase the amount of oxygen and decrease the amount of nitrogen.
"There are two divers at all times with him, swapping out tanks," Buckley said. "They had hot soup, medical help available, lots of support staff ready once he got back into shallower range. We will probably not ever know what happened."
Recovery efforts
After he never reappeared Saturday morning, search crews patrolled the harbor looking for signs of Garman. He was tethered to the dive line, so there is little possibility that his body surfaced elsewhere.
Buckley said the discussions he has been involved in have been about recovering Garman's body later this week.
One thing that makes recovery difficult is the 250-pound anchor embedded in the sea floor as well as all the equipment attached to it and the tanks Garman was wearing, which he said probably weighs close to 700 pounds.
The other thing that may be delaying the recovery is some of Garman's final instructions.
"His wishes were that if something went wrong the body not be retrieved," Buckley said. "That is his family's wishes as well. I'm not sure what the legal ramifications are."
On Sunday afternoon, Buckley said he and some of his staff were sipping mimosas somewhere on the Christiansted boardwalk, trying to unwind from the stress and mental fatigue of losing their good friend in such an agonizing way.
"We're not only losing a friend, we're losing a colleague and a stellar diver, especially somebody who researched the deep diving world," Buckley said. "And the island is losing an awesome physician. The whole island loses in that respect."
- Contact Gerry Yandel at 714-9106 or email gyandel@dailynews.vi.
Hetland
Contributor
10 hour and 25 minute run time, 35 cylinders.
'Stellar diver' disappears into the deep - News - Virgin Islands Daily News
'Stellar diver' disappears into the deep - News - Virgin Islands Daily News
Darnold9999
Contributor
I also fall into this group. Saw this casually, thought - another really experienced diver trying for a record - not my cup of tea, but whatever. The tag line "understood and knew more about deep technical diving than anyone on the planet" gave rise to the conclusion that this must be someone with thousands of dives and years and years of experience. To find that this was a diver that had only been diving for four years with 600 or so dives was a real shock. To find that there is a commercial outfit Scuba Tec out there that was actively encouraging him and aiding him to do these kinds of dives with that low an experience level AND actively promoting him as someone that knows a lot about deep diving is appalling.
For what it is worth IMHO from what little I have read this company is pretty close to the line re negligence. I suspect that they have many many waivers etc, but given the true level of experience and knowledge of this man, supporting him and encouraging him to do this kind of dive might go over the line to be sufficiently negligent so as to make the waivers irrelevant.
Again IMHO it would be a good thing for lawyers to have a run at this company - might put them out of business and save a couple of lives - or at least tone down the rah rah rah rhetoric re deep bounce diving. Yes I know that we all have every right to do stupid things that might kill us, but we don't need a cheering section to reinforce our ignorance, take our money and assist in the process.
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