Do you Plan your dive or Dive your plan within NDLs?

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I've read all the posts in this thread (not sure why....), and my conclusion is this:
  • We figure out how much gas we use by measuring pressure loss per time, at some depth.Call it at-depth pressure/minute.
  • To have useful number at all depth, we convert it to surface pressure/minute.
  • This number is only useful in planning if we dive the same size tank we did the measurement with, but I don't, I variously use (imperial units because that is how they are marked) a 63, an 80, a 95, double 100's, whatever.
  • So to have only one number to remember, and to use in software and in discussions with other divers and on forums, I convert that surface pressure/minute in a specific tank to a surface volume/minute. THAT is my whatever-you-want-call-it....I call it SAC, but that does not really matter.
Punch line: you can use your pressure/minute rates all you want, but unless the tank you are diving is always the same size, you need to do more than rely on that number.

By the way, I really don't care whether it is imperial or metric units I use; I'm conversant with both (apparently unlike many posters here!), each has their advantages and disadvantages.
But I DO CARE if people insist on their personal definition of some term when clearly other definitions exist.
You have one number in volume units that's normalized at the Surface across all cylinder tanks (SAC/RMV); all you have to do is divide that number by the tank factor of the cylinder that you actually plan to use in order to get a SAC rate in pressure units per time. Multiply that number by the planned depth in ATA, and you get the pressure consumption rate ar that depth. The motivation is because your SPG reads in pressure units, it makes sense to have a derived consumption rate in terms of pressure per time, and to monitor that pressure rate at depth for at least a couple of ten minute intervals (or five minutes interval if deep) for signs of unexpected increased gas consumption or a regulator/hose/BCD leak.
 
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You have one number in volume units that's normalized at the Surface across all cylinder tanks (SAC/RMV); all you have to do is divide that number by the tank factor of the cylinder that you actually plan to use in order to get a SAC rate in pressure units per time. Multiply that number by the planned depth in ATA, and you get the pressure consumption rate ar that depth. The motivation is because your SPG reads in pressure units, it makes sense to have a derived consumption rate in terms of pressure per time, and to monitor that pressure rate at depth for at least a couple of ten minute intervals (or five minutes interval if deep) for signs of unexpected increased gas consumption or a regulator/hose/BCD leak.
Yes, I usually do that, but not with tank factors (yet one more number to remember). Unless I go to doubles, my personal surface pressure/minute is known to me for an AL80, so I'm always within 20% or so for any of the singles I use. Hey, maybe i remember two numbers! Cool. Maybe I need an SPG that is different for each tank, and is calibrated in volume.
 
Maybe I need an SPG that is different for each tank, and is calibrated in volume.

They have those. They are electronic.

But, they don't read out in surface volume of gas left. They read out in minutes of gas left.... :)
 
they don't read out in surface volume of gas left. They read out in minutes of gas left.... :)
So, you mean something like this? :D

Suunto-Cobra-13.png
 
Yes, I usually do that, but not with tank factors (yet one more number to remember). Unless I go to doubles, my personal surface pressure/minute is known to me for an AL80, so I'm always within 20% or so for any of the singles I use. Hey, maybe i remember two numbers! Cool. Maybe I need an SPG that is different for each tank, and is calibrated in volume.
The only time a bar pressure SPG will have a one-to-one correspondence with cubic feet is with double HP119 tanks (or any twinset which totals 28 to 30 liters/bar).

That is 30 liters/bar divided-by 28.3 liters/cuft equals 1.06 cubic feet per bar. Therefore a bar SPG will read directly as values in cubic feet volume when used with a twinset of HP119's.
 
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I'll say it again: it is dangerous to use NAUI or any tables NOT designed for multi-level dives, to plan a multi-level dive, unless you use it as just rough guidance and then actually dive by your computer.

I guess where you and I disagree is I think using tables for multilevel diving as a "close enough" indicator has value to me. As well I cave fill my tanks - my steels get a heavier load and my aluminum's get get at least 15% or more. So for me the size of the tank is meaningless it is the size and pressure to determine the volume in the tank that is important for me.

It seems to work for me - I get close enough and when I go back to look at some of my dives that I have done and back into the dives by running my excel - it gets pretty darn close to the time and volume of gas that I have used. I would never say it is accurate it is not - but it is a rudimentary planning tool that I can use to tell me to stop or proceed I have enough gas to attempt the dive. I may need to cut it short based on my monitoring of my situation, SPG and PDC but it seems better to me than jumping in and completely letting my PDC tell me what to do...

Call me crazy :)
 
each - imperial or metric - has their advantages and disadvantages.

REALLY :p:oops::D
 
each - imperial or metric - has their advantages and disadvantages.

REALLY :p:oops::D
For your 15L/bar cylinder and 12 to 15 liter/min*ATA consumption rate, it makes sense to use Metric:D:cool::)!
 
I guess where you and I disagree is I think using tables for multilevel diving as a "close enough" indicator has value to me. As well I cave fill my tanks - my steels get a heavier load and my aluminum's get get at least 15% or more. So for me the size of the tank is meaningless it is the size and pressure to determine the volume in the tank that is important for me.

It seems to work for me - I get close enough and when I go back to look at some of my dives that I have done and back into the dives by running my excel - it gets pretty darn close to the time and volume of gas that I have used. I would never say it is accurate it is not - but it is a rudimentary planning tool that I can use to tell me to stop or proceed I have enough gas to attempt the dive. I may need to cut it short based on my monitoring of my situation, SPG and PDC but it seems better to me than jumping in and completely letting my PDC tell me what to do...

Call me crazy :)
OK, you are crazy, especially that overfilling of Aluminum tanks by 15%. Is your insurance up-to-date?
 
The ambiguity of an SAC expressed in units of pressure over time is the absence of a measure of volume. If a diver says that he breathes at the rate of 2.5 psi/min he has not told us anything useful until we know what size tanks he is breathing from. The math is simple - no more complicated than freshman high school algebra. It is all doable in your head (or at least in mine).

I find it simpler to reckon my gas volume in fractions of my total tank volume. For example if I am diving my LP95's, then I have 250 CF to start (at 3500 psi). At my breathing rate of .4 SCFM that is a bit over 600 minutes at 1ATA or 75 minutes at 230 feet. A one third rule gives me 25 minutes at depth. All this is planned beforehand.

Checking my spg on the dive should show my gas being depleted at a rate such as to bring me to my 2/3 mark at my ascent time.
I do not really need to do any complicated calculations on the dive, I can tell by spot checks if I am on track.

For example, 12 minutes (half way) into the dive I should be at about 5/6 of my starting pressure or about 2900 psi. Note that these numbers are all approximations. You can only read an spg to +/- 100 psi and you can only measure your breathing rate to +/- 0.1 SCFM (if that).

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A Better & Clear Gas Planning Methodology Utilizing Metric System:

If you understand your pressure per time rate is based on your tank's rating, then there is no ambiguity. And it's easier to do it all pre-planning & on-the-fly using the Metric System. . .

For your example of LP95's at 230 feet/69 meters:

Your SCR (Surface Consumption Rate) of 0.4 SCFM converts to 11 litres/min*ATA in metric.

Your total metric tank rating for double LP95's is 30 litres/bar.

Therefore your pressure SCR rated for your double LP95's, is 11 litres/min*ATA divided-by 30 litres/bar which equals approximately 0.4 bar/min*ATA.

So at a depth of 230' or 69 meters (same as 7.9 ATA):
Your DCR (Depth Consumption Rate) will be 0.4 multiplied-by 7.9 equals 3.2 bar/min. Hence for every minute of elapsed time, I expect the SPG to decrease by 3.2 bar when at a depth of 230'/69m.

Thus in 10 minutes of nominal swimming at 230'/69m, I expect the SPG to be down 32 bar from the previous reading. In 10 more minutes, I expect the SPG to be down another 32 bar; in 5 more minutes after that, I expect the SPG to be down 16 bar from the previous reading --and now you're at your third's-turn pressure of 80 bar total delta consumed, with 160 bar remaining pressure (out of 241 bar full fill) as indicated by the SPG.

Re-Check Arithmetic Thirds Turn Pressure & Time: Your fill of 3500 psi is equivalent to 241 bar in metric. One-third of 241 bar is approx 80 bar delta.

Summing the above expected SPG time check readings at respectively 10min, 20min and 25min elapsed time at 230'/69m: 32 bar plus 32 bar plus 16 bar equals 80 bar total delta consumed. Check -->As you stated above and is confirmed, your planned third's turn pressure in this example would be at the 25 minute mark with 80 bar consumed. Your expected SPG reading at thirds turn pressure should indicate 160 bar remaining (241 bar full fill minus 80 is approx 160 bar remaining).

This illustrates my point using your own example that there is no ambiguity in the use of pressure units per time rate during the dive, provided that you understand that it is mathematically dependent upon your total tank rating of the cylinder(s) in use. . . (And again, since your SPG reads in bar units so it makes better sense to work with pressure units instead of volume units).
 
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