Do they owe us and explaination?

[Doc]

1. The investigation on a dive accident is largely out of the hands of the resort or operator. There are things being done and conclusions being made that they may not even be aware of.
2. Things take time. The incident you referred to happened less than 30 days ago.
3. The parties’ involved need to consider both humane and legal repercussions of any statements that are made for a long time to come.

Are far as being ‘owed’ anything - that is up to each of us as individuals. We accept diving as a sport with some risks. Sadly, there were diving deaths before this incident, and there have been some since. I for one am comfortable that pertinent facts from all of these incidents will find there way into the collective knowledge of the diving community. Misunderstandings and conjecture will only slow that benefit.

Are you alone in your concern? Not at all. Just have patience.

Nothing more could I add to that. Well said.

We will read all about it in our little dive magazines and publications from dive insurance companies... long after the facts have been settled (see Bill51's post above).
Everyone in any such incident is advised to keep quiet until the official reports get issued. These advisors include PADI, DEMA, DAN, indvidual insurance companies, their attornies, everyone.

We can sit here and stamp our feet and hold our breath until we turn red.

And it won't matter.

It will come out.

Patience.

 

[SDAnderson]

Owed?

Are you going to put a lien on their estate if they don't pay up?

What kind of debt is created by dying? Or does everyone involved in a scuba accident or injury owe you an explanation? Does this debt relate only to scuba or are you owed an explanation for every death?

Lots of people would like to know what happened in the accident you mentioned. Some for noble reasons such as learning how to avoid a repeat of the calamity in the future but others for more prurient or venal reasons.

Merely being curious doesn't grant you a right to anything except the potential of being labeled a snoopy busybody. If you want the kind of very sensitive, very personal, very private information that comes from a death investigation, be prepared to demonstrate (in a non-threatening manner) your legitimate need for that information and your ability to handle both the situation and the information in a professional, caring manner.

Engaging in hyperbolic rants on the web about how somebody owes you an explanation is probably not the best course of action. Sit down, take a breath, relax a bit and encourage others to do the same. If you can do that and wait it out, information often does become available. Of course, by then, most people will have moved on to the latest shark attack or suicide bombing and lost interest in the incident...

 

[Henryville]

The description says it is moderated to comply with the rules of accident analysis. I assume this means that speculation and wild-@@@ guessing will not be tolerated, presentation of facts and conclusion drawn therefrom will, but a moderator would have to comment on that.

I do notice that it has only three threads. This may be an indicator of just how difficult it is to get analysable facts from these tragedies. Organizations like DAN and BSAC are well-placed for this with the expertise and the patience to assemble all the available information, analyse trends, etc.

I agree with what was said above - if it's morbid curiosity, out of respect for all involved get your kicks somewhere else. If it's to make your own and others' diving safer, then by all means.

 

[cornfed]

Having said that, I also want to know what happened so I can take steps to prevent the problem.

No, they don't owe you anything. But more over, I don't think you're even going to learn anything that wasn't covered in your basic OW class.

There is an active thread regarding a fataility in Japan. The deceased had been told by his doctor not to dive. What is there to learn here?

If you look DAN's accident report for this year you'll see that off all the people list as being injured from a dive you won't learn anything new either. Nearly 20% of those injured made a rapid ascent, 10% missed decompression, 5% ran out of air. There isn't anything to be learned here.

There is even less to learn when you look at the fatalities. Nearly 75% of the people where catergorized as "overweight" and 40% we listed as some degree of obesity. Almost 45% of the people who died hadn't made any dives in the previous 12 months. My open water instructor told me to stay in shape and take a refresher if I stopped diving for a while.

Maybe knowing the proximate causes for all these accidents might help, but the bottom line is you know that everything I listed above is a problem. Instead of complaining that you're not getting information from people who aren't alive anymore to answer you questions, you'd probably be better off talking to those who can. I'm willing to bet that the actual event which caused those people to make a rapid ascent or run out of air can be found in the near misses section.

 

[Wijbrandus]

I think another part of the equation is that when an incident occurs in the US, the press is all over it. They speculate and as a result, preliminary reports are released to correct incorrect assumptions the speculations create.

When incidents occur outside of the US, I don't think there is nearly the media frenzy, nor the pressure for results.

Ultimately, I'd like to know what particulars are involved in any diver's death, if only to make myself more aware, and therefore more "safe". In the end, though, I think Cornfed is probably right. Nearly every cause of death is covered in our basic OW training, and the rest are covered in further training (nitrox for example).

I'm not going to worry about the matter any more. I'm really not all that concerned about it, except I found the one particular case to be interesting because it wasn't just a client, but also a professional of the resort who was lost. That's unusual, and it's no wonder this case has caused more than the normal amount of interest.

If a sanitized report came out down the road, I'd read it just for the reasons of making myself more aware of what can go wrong. By rights, though, I should already be.

 

[cornfed]

I'm not going to worry about the matter any more. I'm really not all that concerned about it, except I found the one particular case to be interesting because it wasn't just a client, but also a professional of the resort who was lost. That's unusual, and it's no wonder this case has caused

DAN does provide more information at the back of their accident report. The problem is that the reports are based on older data. For example, the 2005 report is based on 2003 data, the 2004 report based on 2002 data, etc.

 

[SDAnderson]

I don't think it's a problem that the DAN data is a couple of years old. It's still pertinent and that's how long it takes to gather, collate, analyse and publish.

As you pointed out, the causes are almost always limited to the same handful of "shoulda known betters" and presenting a clinical and statistical analysis of them doesn't make for very sexy reading. The "problem" most folks have with the DAN reports is that they don't titillate and they don't provide an opportunity to vent.

That said, anyone interested in health and safety issues relevant to diving should join DAN (www.diversalertnetwork.org) and can avail themselves of a wide range of information and training. The 2005 report (of 2003 data) is 142 pages of comprehensive analysis and is only one of a number of DAN publications that deal with diver safety and health issues.

DAN does provide more information at the back of their accident report. The problem is that the reports are based on older data. For example, the 2005 report is based on 2003 data, the 2004 report based on 2002 data, etc.

 

[cdiver2]

No, they don't owe you anything. But more over, I don't think you're even going to learn anything that wasn't covered in your basic OW class.

There is an active thread regarding a fataility in Japan. The deceased had been told by his doctor not to dive. What is there to learn here?

If you look DAN's accident report for this year you'll see that off all the people list as being injured from a dive you won't learn anything new either. Nearly 20% of those injured made a rapid ascent, 10% missed decompression, 5% ran out of air. There isn't anything to be learned here.

There is even less to learn when you look at the fatalities. Nearly 75% of the people where catergorized as "overweight" and 40% we listed as some degree of obesity. Almost 45% of the people who died hadn't made any dives in the previous 12 months. My open water instructor told me to stay in shape and take a refresher if I stopped diving for a while.

Maybe knowing the proximate causes for all these accidents might help, but the bottom line is you know that everything I listed above is a problem. Instead of complaining that you're not getting information from people who aren't alive anymore to answer you questions, you'd probably be better off talking to those who can. I'm willing to bet that the actual event which caused those people to make a rapid ascent or run out of air can be found in the near misses section.

I think one of the things divers want to know is the resort safe. Was it bad air, were they diving nitrox and had the wrong mix (I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS THE CASE). I don't think its unreasonable to expect a basic explanation when you are a potential customer.
I know there were a couple of people said they were thinking of backing out of a booking when this started. Call it more of a reassurance than a explanation.

 

[StSomewhere]

Deleted.

 

[Diversion]

One thing that needs to be recognized in this particular incident:

Most often, when a dive accident occurs, there are multiple posts by folks who “just heard about it” because they were on a boat and heard the radio… knew someone who was on a boat or at the marina… heard about it from the local media, etc. Usually this is followed by days or weeks of hearsay, with an occasional news report. It is very rare to hear anything, anything, at all from the dive operators involved. (Read a few threads – there are lots of examples.) In the case of the Coco View tragedy, the dive op was the first out with a clearly written statement, published on several boards. If anything, they deserve recognition for being upfront about it. Yet they seem to be getting all the heat for ‘not talking’.

This one needs a rest!