Do not ever say you are a rescue diver

[Blackcrusader]

Other authorities are the country you are diving in, or the operator you are diving with, or the kind of insurance you have. It is not just your dive buddy.

Yes and I quoted that in your post. was just noting my buddy for me is one I will follow as well.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Incorrect! Bubbles are most certainly forming, but within NDL they're (typically) benign and fall into the category of "silent bubbles." According to the PADI table, if you go to 60ft for 50mins a safety stop is now required.

Okay, I’ll let you go with this one, except that for many divers this statement that “Bubbles are most certainly forming…” is somewhat problematic. Now, when challenged, I go to Google Scholar and look things up. If you really want to know more about silent bubbles, I encourage you to read this entire study.

https://ntnuopen.ntnu.no/ntnu-xmlui/bitstream/handle/11250/2405515/Blogg+-+Vascular+decompression+bubbles.pdf?sequence=3

SeaRat

 

[Belzelbub]

Here too. You conflated maximum depth and recommended depth.

Since PADI has no authority on the certified diver, the maximum depth mentioned in their blog can only be a recommendation. They have no authority to enforce the limit. PADI is not recommending that divers go to 130’/40M on their 6th dive. That is where the training and experience part comes in.

Only legislative bodies are able to impose actual limits. Dive operations are able to set policies, but they don’t have any legal recourse. Worst they can do is cancel a dive, or upcoming bookings.

Certifying agencies can only make recommendations, so the mention in the blog is a recommendation. It’s not a prohibition, decree, law, AOW anything else that might have teeth.

 

[BoltSnap]

Since PADI has no authority on the certified diver, the maximum depth mentioned in their blog can only be a recommendation. They have no authority to enforce the limit. PADI is not recommending that divers go to 130’/40M on their 6th dive. That is where the training and experience part comes in.

Only legislative bodies are able to impose actual limits. Dive operations are able to set policies, but they don’t have any legal recourse. Worst they can do is cancel a dive, or upcoming bookings.

Certifying agencies can only make recommendations, so the mention in the blog is a recommendation. It’s not a prohibition, decree, law, AOW anything else that might have teeth.

That's all true but when PADI puts forward these "recommendations," they in effect setting the limits for the dive boat operators, resorts, guides, etc. No one in their right mind would go against PADI's "recommendations" and face all potential liability later if an accident occurs. Their dive liability insurance in additio to the plaintiff's attorney's will look at PADI's standards and recommendations after an accident occurs to determine their liability. Much more effective than some legislative bodies setting the actual limits.

 

[Belzelbub]

That's all true but when PADI puts forward these "recommendations," they in effect setting the limits for the dive boat operators, resorts, guides, etc. No one in their right mind would go against PADI's "recommendations" and face all potential liability later if an accident occurs. Their dive liability insurance in additio to the plaintiff's attorney's will look at PADI's standards and recommendations after an accident occurs to determine their liability. Much more effective than some legislative bodies setting the actual limits.

Yeah, but they are still just recommendations. Dive Operations set policies inline with their insurance requirements. I’m certain the insurance companies did look to the certifying bodies to see what those recommendations might be.

So, if you use Dive Ops, you need to follow their rules. Otherwise, they may prevent you from doing that 2nd dive of the day, or cancel future bookings.

There seems to be some concern over Blackcrusader’s use of the term “recommendation” for the 130’/40M “limit.” If it’s not a recommendation, I’m not sure what else to call it.

 

[BoltSnap]

There seems to be some concern over Blackcrusader’s use of the term “recommendation” for the 130’/40M “limit.” If it’s not a recommendation, I’m not sure what else to call it.

"Recommendation" that has become a standard by default. In short a standard used in courts (torts as in the US) and criminal investigations (Malta types) when the shiit hits the fan and a dive professional's action or performance is in question.

 

[boulderjohn]

No one in their right mind would go against PADI's "recommendations" and face all potential liability later if an accident occurs.

I have never seen a dive operation anywhere in the world that limits OW certified divers to 60 feet. A small percentage of dive operations will limit dives in the 100 foot range to people with AOW, but the vast majority do not. I have never seen a dive operation anywhere in the world that requires the Deep Dive specialty for dives deeper than 100 feet.

You will see this much more readily in the area of overhead environments. When I debated with PADI headquarters about their statements in this regard (and thus got some of that language changed), I pointed out that the current PADI language prohibited any overhead environment to anyone without proper certification for overhead environments, and yet every operation in the world allows customers to go inside wrecks or go through coral swim throughs or lava tubes.

Dive Operations set policies inline with their insurance requirements.

The dive operation's insurance is indeed the primary determiner of such policies.

 

[Belzelbub]

"Recommendation" that has become a standard by default. In short a standard used in courts (torts as in the US) and criminal investigations (Malta types) when the shiit hits the fan and a dive professional's action or performance is in question.

No argument there. It’s a recommendation that has been determined to be reasonable. And for dive ops, and dive pros (operating in that capacity, there can be penalties in the event of an accident. That makes sense as there are paying customers or students.

For me, it’s a little different. I have my own gear, boat, etc. I can dive well beyond those PADI or SSI recommendations, and not worry about PADI or SSI doing anything for exceeding the recommended limit.

Malta is a whole other subject, and hopefully, a special case.

The issue with “recommended” started many pages back. Below is the original post and the objection to the term

Padi recommended recreational limit for an OW certified diver is 40m. You don't need to mention deep certificate. lol

This is correct, with the caveat that dive ops can require additional certifications for some dives. That’s their policy.

I don't agree with Blackcrusader when he said Padi recommends 40m for OW certified divers.
I think the Padi blog that says the limit is 40m then says straight after that there's no scuba police is a contradiction because if there's no police to enforce a limit then there is no limit. Plus it's pretty stupid thing for a dive agency to say IMO.

The end

All PADI can do in this case is make a recommendation. They don’t have the power to make it a legally binding.

Courts and legislative bodies can turn that recommendation into something stronger, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still a recommendation. The fact that many other agencies use the same recommendation does lend credence. It makes it easier for the courts to determine that an op taking rec divers to 170’ isn’t reasonable.

 

[boulderjohn]

I just want to remind people that stating that 40m is the limit for recreational diving does not mean that you cannot go deeper than 40m on a dive. It just means that when you do, it is no longer a recreational dive. The analogy I used before about crossing the border from Colorado to Utah is apt. The limit to driving in Colorado is that border; when you cross it, you are now in Utah. That does not mean you are not allowed to cross the border.

That limit existed long before PADI made its own tables, the Recreational Dive Planner, but when it did, it made 40m the last depth on the tables. If you wanted to do dives deeper than that, you could not use the Recreational Dive Planner.

BTW, according to the Encyclopedia of Recreational Diving, the primary reason that the 40m limit was originally imposed was not so much the fact that diving deeper than that involved decompression stops, it was because deeper than that would likely involve narcosis.

 

[Beau Holden]

That statement says the maximum depth for recreational diving is 40 meters. You might not be aware of the meaning of the word "maximum." That means you should not go beyond that.

@boulderjohn don't get me wrong here, I do agree with you, but for sake of discussion (seems to be at times very little of that here), possibly why was the this depth chosen?

I present that possibly; 40 meters rounds (for practical purposes) to 130 feet and 5ATA. Makes it pretty simple as a base to say they are equal. Now if I was to ride the NDL ((no decompression limit)(no deco limit)) to the limit of most models these values would be different and would involve some decimal values. who wants to remember that. Regardless of where in the world I am diving we can all understand that if one says the recreational dive is 40 meters, I can equate that to 130 feet, or if someone says 5ATA, I know that is the same as 40 meters or 130 feet. These us basically equal values and a little cushion on time to going into deco (decompression).

Now I don't have the power to look up someones butt and read their mind as to why, but this make sense me.

Therefore, it is not against the law to go beyond that limit

Correct, there is no law at least in the USA. The law could give a rat as to how deep you go and what certification you have

There is distinct difference between "decompression" and a "deco dive." The former is a physiological term, the latter is a scuba term, each with their own meaning. It is OK to say,

Now I know I'm from the south and I might be a little slow but in all my discussion and use of the words decompression or deco when describing a dive, mean or describe the same thing, deco is just an abbreviation the word decompression. I can't remember a time when this has confused someone.

The example I will use "I am going to be making decompression stops on this dive." "I am going to making deco stops on this dive." "my decompression limit on this dive is 20 minutes" "my deco limit on this dive is 20 minutes"

Now if I ride my deco limit from a 130 feet (leave 130 feet with less than a minute left on my computer) all the way up to my safety stop (if i decide to do one), I'm I doing a recreational dive or basically a deco dive. Why start splitting hairs?