DM or TEC certification route?

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so are you saying that the skills taught in GUE Fundamentals are not necessary for technical diving, just advantageous?

The problem is that the skills taught in GUE Fundamentals are also taught in technical diving classes through other agencies as well. Believe it or not, GUE is not the only agency that teaches these skills. All technical diving agencies do.

I have a number of tech certifications from UTD, from an instructor originally trained by GUE. All the skills taught in GUE fundamentals were required. When I got my cave training through NSS-CDS, I had a head start because of that, but those skills were still required of me. When I later switched from UTD and finished my trimix training with TDI, I had to have those skills. When I got my TDI instructor certification, I had to demonstrate those skills at an instructor level. They are part of the courses I teach for TDI. Two months ago I spent several days accompanying a PADI tec course being conducted in Cozumel--once again, same skills taught same way.

GUE Fundamentals is a fine class that teaches fine skills, but GUE did not invent any of those skills, and other technical diving agencies teach them as well.
 
The problem is that the skills taught in GUE Fundamentals are also taught in technical diving classes through other agencies as well. Believe it or not, GUE is not the only agency that teaches these skills. All technical diving agencies do.

I have a number of tech certifications from UTD, from an instructor originally trained by GUE. All the skills taught in GUE fundamentals were required. When I got my cave training through NSS-CDS, I had a head start because of that, but those skills were still required of me. When I later switched from UTD and finished my trimix training with TDI, I had to have those skills. When I got my TDI instructor certification, I had to demonstrate those skills at an instructor level. They are part of the courses I teach for TDI. Two months ago I spent several days accompanying a PADI tec course being conducted in Cozumel--once again, same skills taught same way.

GUE Fundamentals is a fine class that teaches fine skills, but GUE did not invent any of those skills, and other technical diving agencies teach them as well.


I am aware of that, but probably good that you pointed it out as some might be wondering. The conversation was specifically about GUE Fundamentals.
 
haha, you do realize that i 'm abt 6,000 miles away from florida, right?!?
(of course i could always take a fortnight off from office, right!?!
but again, that wouldn't be enough for a cavern class, would it?:D)
All you need are two or three days for a cavern class. Two to three more for basic cave should you want to go the second step. After you get cavern finished, come on down to the Keys where the water temps were right at 77oF today.
 
Nobody said GUE invented any of it . . . but it's still one of the only classes you can take in a single tank where technical level performance is reliably modeled AND required of the student. UTD has similar classes. Most of the other agencies have instituted SOME kind of Intro to Tech class, but I'm not sure you can take all of them in a single tank, and I know darned well that the standard of performance can vary widely, both in the instructors and in what is required of the students.

I'm not trying to say that GUE is the only way to train, but I think taking Fundamentals gives you a huge leg up on anything, including a cavern class. Which is hard to take when you don't live where there are any caverns.
 
I am aware of that, but probably good that you pointed it out as some might be wondering. The conversation was specifically about GUE Fundamentals.

As was my response.

The question is what is the advantage of taking GUE fundamentals before taking another class that is going to teach you the same thing?
 
I don't see the point in doing the DM course unless it is a stepping stone to becoming an instructor. Although I agree you will learn more about diving, there's nothing you can't learn by just joining a club and diving (apart from the PADI indoctrination process).

I'll offer hree points that may influence you to take DM training as a stepping stone to tech even if you have no ambition to become an instructor.

First, DM's accumulate BULK time in the water and BULK experience sorting out SCUBA gear. If you take the DM cert, you will accumulate HOURS and HOURS of pool and ocean time during your internship. If you have a good instructor, you will very likely be able to execute all the basic skills to demonstration quality without thinking. And you will get to participate in more than one rescue class, usually acting as a victim. I can tell you that being the victim over and over for Rescue Divers in training will absolutely teach you what NOT to do. There is no substitute for BULK time in the water when honing your skills... so, there's that.

Somebody with 100+ dives, OW, AOW, RD, Deep and EANx should not need to become a dive centre's kit-bitch to learn to set up kit - you should know how to set up your kit by the end of OW. Also, the tech kit is different - why practice setting up a single tank and stab-jacket set-up when he is going to be setting up a twinset, wing, Hog-loop, deco-bottles etc?

Why learn to do the drills to demonstration quality? When he is doing tech training, he will be learning to donate a long hose while neutrally buoyant - not kneeling on the bottom and holding his arms up while somebody takes his octopus.

Time in the water can be gained by just getting out and diving, and in conditions that are a bit more challenging to those that students are usually taught in.

Second, Tech is equipment intensive. It's quite an expensive hobby, even for folks with some cash to burn. If you do your DM first, you become a dive Pro and may be able to take advantage of Keyman deals or your shop may help you out. You might even earn a bit of money toward your tech gear while getting some dives done.

Maybe so, but is the discount going to cover the costs of training? How much do DMs get paid? Where I am it's nothing. If money's tight, you'd be better off doing a bit of bar work in the evenings to finance kit.

Third... have you ever met a tech diver that you had a hard time connecting with because they were so... Techie? Divemaster training includes learning how to present yourself as a professional, a trusted advisor, a competent diver hopefully without any hint of condescension. Most of the divers I know are great folks anyway, but tech training is intensive. When you get immersed in the required discipline for Tech diving, it's natural to react to the things you see recreational divers doing. But a DM absolutely learns how to smile and lend a helping hand without making average divers feel self conscious. Do tech courses teach soft skills? I think it matters because we do not dive alone.

Potential Tech divers who have fewer than 100 dives under their belt might want to think about these factors. DM training can be a valuable stepping stone for future tech divers, even if they have no intention to become instructors.

I've met many tech divers, one ore two are knobs but then again, so are some recreational divers. In general though, I have never thought the majority of them need training on how to speak to people in a helpful and considerate manner. They are great skills to have but if an adult has to pay PADI to learn simple courtesy, there's something wrong.
 
The question is what is the advantage of taking GUE fundamentals before taking another class that is going to teach you the same thing?

Here's how I see the advantage -- if you take a cavern class, your primary focus is on learning to dive in caverns. You should spend your time learning skills you really can't learn in open water -- how to do proper tie-offs, how to follow a line in no-viz, how to find the line . . . there is no point spending the money to travel to a place where there are caverns, to learn how to do a valve drill with good buoyancy, or how to share gas without corking.

If you take a tech class, you are focused on dive planning, and on handling malfunctions and mistakes. You should begin that kind of work with a certain degree of stability in the water, and tolerance for task loading.

People who come into cavern and tech classes with poor basic skills end up spending time with an expensive instructor, sometimes in a foreign and inconvenient and expensive environment, learning basic skills they could cement in the diving they have available to them at home. A class which focuses on bringing those basics up to "tech" level in a local and familiar environment, will make the investment in technical or cave training pay off much better, because of the time that doesn't need to be spent on basics.
 
trust i' m not the only in here to come up with this q, but since i couldn't spot
the right thread with a quick look, i thought i'd might post this anyway:

dm or tec certification? would really be much interested to know what you
guys think should come 1st.

btw, i' m rescue+ean+night+deep+drysuit certified & diving a singletank
dir configuration right now...

thanks in adv

They are not mutually exclusive.

I think DM's would benefit from tech level diver training and I think one learns a lot by teaching.

I often hear people saying that the DM course doesn't teach you how to be a better diver, which might be true, but working as one sure the hell does. If you're ONLY interested in the diving skills or you have no intention of actually working as a DM then just do the tech specialties, otherwise do both and you'll round yourself out in some meaningful ways.

R..
 
There are several ways to arrive at the destination... but the journey is actually what delivers the fun.

BEFORE technical dive agencies arrived on the scene (the early 1990s), there really were only two pathways along which the average recreational diver looking to improve her skills... all six of them... could walk. The NSS-CDS and NACD offered cavern and cave training, while Divemaster was available through the sport diving certification agencies.

They aimed at different outcomes, but that was a moot point really... it's all there was.

The scene is way different now. DM still exists and still teaches the same core skill set. Based on what I have seen, that core skill set does NOT translate well for technical diving, and graduates from a DM course are NOT shoe-ins to pass a technical program... even an intro-to-tech. However, they probably ARE OK to look after punters on a boat and on shallow dives.

Many of the technical divers I know and have had the privilege of working with over the past several years, would have zero interest in acting as guide and nurse-maid to a group of divers about the attack a shallow reef in the Turks and Caicos Islands... for instance. However, with a couple of minutes chat before that dive -- explaining the principles of cat herding -- I believe the majority of them could do a credible job because their situational awareness is so much better than the average DM... or many instructors for that matter.''

Which pathway you take is entirely up to you, but the comparison is not apples to apples, but rather apples to dragon fruit.

Best plan, go dive and worry about more courses when you've got a couple of hundred dives.
 
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