DM blew me off

[t4e]

At no time did I say the OP was a "STROKE" or that he was going to "DIE".

does "most inconsiderate" sound better? .....you are telling me that you were born an experienced diver?

Well maybe t4e hadn't seen posts that said that... it *was* qualified, after all... t4e said that was the most arrogant post he (or she) had ever read. IJS.

i have no idea what you're trying to say...funny, insightful?...not a clue



i mostly lurk because i enjoy reading and when something like this comes up i just have to make a comment

i can't believe that the attitude in the vast majority of the replies is that ...nobody has ever been a noob, nobody here has ever been an air hog and did not ruin someone elses dive because of that....basically pretty much everyone that replied on this thread has been born an experienced diver

second, someone explain to me the logic of saying in one thread "make sure you stay with your buddy"...yet in this thread the OP as well as anyone low on air waséis supposed to surface alone...doesn`t quite add up

the OP was teamed up with a DM....for all intents and purposes that is his dive buddy...end of story

my understanding is that the DM was from the same shop that trained him and gave him the certification, why would anyone in his right mind put a brand new certified diver with a group of experienced divers?

give the OP a break...time for a wake up call............nobody gets out school and expert....its only theory you passed, experience comes with practice and diving is the same thing

but again, i find it amazing that almost everyone in this thread does not remember their beginner dives

 

[brnt999]

No, they need to learn to take care of themselves, stay out of the water, or let Darwin do his work.

Its comments like that that make me shake my head and if I knew that was a true representation of the dive community's attitude I would quit diving. Who wants to hang out with a bunch of self centered a**holes who just look out for themselves. The fact is I know there are dive shops who first priority is the saftey of their divers--I dove with them.There are DM's whose first priority is the saftey and well being of the people they are diving with--I dove with them.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Its comments like that that make me shake my head and if I knew that was a true representation of the dive community's attitude I would quit diving. Who wants to hang out with a bunch of self centered a**holes who just look out for themselves. The fact is I know there are dive shops who first priority is the saftey of their divers--I dove with them.There are DM's whose first priority is the saftey and well being of the people they are diving with--I dove with them.

By all means, keep hoping others will shoulder the responsibility for getting you back on the boat alive, and keep diving with a mindset that actually allowed you to think 'gee, this guy said I'm supposed to follow him...so even though I know I'm running out of gas--the only thing that keeps me alive under all this water--I'll just stay down here and hope for the best!'

One day, if you don't get yourself memorialized in an accident report first, you may realize that only you can be in charge of taking care of yourself and that nothing, including a DM's instructions, can override your judgment as to when and how to surface. You tell us the org from which you hold a c-card, and I imagine someone on here can show you where in the relevant manual it says pretty much that. Safe dive ops are great, but they're not the ones in charge of getting you back to the surface.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing your actions alone. The DM did wrong, too. Sharing air with you the first dive was a mistake, as he should have sent you back to the surface (ideally on your own, perhaps with a buddy if you were unable to manage that most basic of dive skills, the controlled ascent) when you flashed him your 50 bar. The bigger mistake was letting you back in the water for the second dive, when you'd already shown that you considered it perfectly fine behavior to burn your only tank down to the nubs and then share air with someone else to stay down longer.

 

[lv2dive]

does "most inconsiderate" sound better? .....you are telling me that you were born an experienced diver?
...
i have no idea what you're trying to say...funny, insightful?...not a clue
...
i mostly lurk because i enjoy reading and when something like this comes up i just have to make a comment

i can't believe that the attitude in the vast majority of the replies is that ...nobody has ever been a noob, nobody here has ever been an air hog and did not ruin someone elses dive because of that....basically pretty much everyone that replied on this thread has been born an experienced diver

second, someone explain to me the logic of saying in one thread "make sure you stay with your buddy"...yet in this thread the OP as well as anyone low on air waséis supposed to surface alone...doesn`t quite add up

the OP was teamed up with a DM....for all intents and purposes that is his dive buddy...end of story

my understanding is that the DM was from the same shop that trained him and gave him the certification, why would anyone in his right mind put a brand new certified diver with a group of experienced divers?

give the OP a break...time for a wake up call............nobody gets out school and expert....its only theory you passed, experience comes with practice and diving is the same thing

but again, i find it amazing that almost everyone in this thread does not remember their beginner dives

ScubainChicago was basically asserting that his post was nowhere near the most offensive post that was ever made (there have been several memorable threads where people were called names and told they were going to die for wearing split fins or some such nonsense)... at any rate, I was just making the point that you qualified your response - you said it was the most arrogant post that *you* had read - not that it was the most arrogant post that had ever been made. That was it, nothing more!

But to your other points - and i think others have said this too - I DO remember being a new diver, and I understand how brnt999 got where he was. And I encourage him - and anyone who may read this - to learn from this situation and understand that at the end of the day, we are each responsible for ourselves. Was the DM wrong? YES. Should the DM have done things differently - as a buddy, not to mention a professional? Heck, YES. Am I surprised to hear about this? NO. There is a whole different approach to diving that can take a lot of this uncertainty away - but it doesn't have anything to do with expecting that paying a DM and will keep you safe (it takes what - 50 dives? to become a DM? I wouldn't trust my life, much less that of a family member, to someone who went through a zero-to-hero program and got OW-DM certification in the space of weeks).

I understand about wanting to vent about it now. But frankly - I'd be more upset that what wasn't stressed enough in my class was that I was responsible for ensuring that I made the appropriate decisions, and if someone didn't abide by the plan, I was empowered to do whatever made the most sense to me, to ensure my safety. The DM was wrong - but the foundation was laid inappropriately in the classroom.

 

[Ken T]

I wasn't. And that's why I left the agency I was certed with originally and went with one that requires my students to be ok with planning their own dives before I can hand them an open water card. I know for a fact that my students are confident enough to do what I was not. And why I am so vehemently against resort courses and for that matter any course where corners are cut in the name of time and profits.

Alas, if only everyone had 6-8 weeks to do a course.

Not that I disagree....knowing now what I don't know...it would have been preferable to take a CMAS or GUE OW certification.
Too bad that their instructors are spread far and wide.

All five of the LDS are PADI. There are some local independent SDI/TDI instructors nearby and SDI/TDI shops 4 hours away.
Though I am not sure if SDI minimum standards are all that much different from PADI minimum standards for OW.

Yes, I do. And yes I was confident that I could safely plan the dive I undertook.

snip...

I knew what I knew and I knew what I didn't know. Part of that was that I knew when I should call the dive. I wasn't relying on anyone else. However, of course, I was happy to have watchful, experienced local divers with me.

Oh. I was certified by PADI. I have no complaints about my OW course.

I can't say I have complaints about my OW course either...but I do recognize now as you say...what I don't know.

My 5th dive was not a disaster by any means, quite enjoyable, but did put me in the mindset that I have a lot to learn still.

 

[Scuba_Noob]

Do the many Pros and experienced divers here, with many hundreds and thousands of dives in their books, remember their 5^th dive?
Were you so confident?

I remember my first dive after certification, my sixth dive (and I can look at my logs). I wasn't confident, that's for sure. So I went to a drop-in dive at my local dive shop that was led by a divemaster. I told them that it was my first dive after certification.

Even though I wasn't 100% confident, I had been taught the skills to do a safe dive, with proper planning. I planned the dive to the smallest detail. Signals, what pressure to safety stop, what pressure to surface, buddy groups, and I worked it out with my buddy group of three, including the DM. When my air reached half, the plan called for me to signal the DM and turn around and ascend to a shallower depth (it was a wall). We hit our safety stop at around 750psi (50bar) and rose with more than 500psi (35bar).

So here I was in a similar situation as the original poster. But the difference is that I communicated my lack of experience to the DM, we worked out a detailed plan (took all of five minutes), and we followed that plan. In your case, there was no communication, there was some semblance of a plan (I think), and either the DM or you (or both) did not follow the plan closely.

When I dove with experienced divers right after Open Water, I would sometimes request that they let me practice my navigation and planning (for a short bit) so that I could improve upon my comfort and abilities. And I would always have a detailed plan, especially for new buddies. I would recommend that for you until you reach a comfort that allows you to lead your own dive buddy group.
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Here's my suggestion: forget any personal insult that you might feel towards the criticisms (i.e., stop being defensive and LISTEN). Look at the solutions in the comments and posts for how to avoid similar situations. Follow the solutions. Reach a diving comfort level that allows you to dive independently.

 

[ScubaInChicago]

Its comments like that that make me shake my head and if I knew that was a true representation of the dive community's attitude I would quit diving. Who wants to hang out with a bunch of self centered a**holes who just look out for themselves. The fact is I know there are dive shops who first priority is the saftey of their divers--I dove with them.There are DM's whose first priority is the saftey and well being of the people they are diving with--I dove with them.

"Why would anyone rush another diver for a regulator? Because they are out of all breathing gas? Because they suffered a primary failure with no backup [spare air]? To me, either one of these is totally unacceptable and unnecessary."

Not that these are my words, but there are some that feel this way!

---------- Post added March 11th, 2013 at 10:16 PM ----------

does "most inconsiderate" sound better? .....you are telling me that you were born an experienced diver?

No, but I am one card & $56.00 away from being a MASTER SCUBA DIVER!!!!!!!!!!

 

[supergaijin]

We hit our safety stop at around 750psi (75bar) and rose with more than 500psi (50bar).

Don't mean to nitpick but 750psi is 50bar, and I think 500 is around 35bar. (3000psi is 208 bar).

OP is getting a lot of heat in this thread- some rightly so. However let's remember that he/she? was diving with the same outfit that they were originally certified with. It sounds pretty clear that the instructor didn't stress the fac that the individual diver is responsible for themselves.

The OP signs up for a 'fun dive' where the DM promptly leads the divers to around 18m (I assume OP didn't have a computer or accurate gauge so this max depth could be deeper). Diver blows their air which should be expected by any DM worth their salt, and DM puts the diver on their octo. On the boat, no attempt? is made to discuss breathing techniques and they jump for the second dive and the same thing happens.... but this time the DM can't be arsed with a noob diver and ignores the OP.

No buddy teams were assigned- just the basic 'follow the fool at the front' kind of circus dive that has given SE Asia a worse and worse reputation in the last 15 years.

The OP should have addressed this incident to management after the dive. I'm somewhat confident that the management would offer all sorts of excuses and then find a way of introducing the PADI Advanced implying that another course will rectify the shortcomings of the original course.

25 odd dives later, and the OP has survived them all, which says something about the original course. Divers must understand the limitations on their OW training but 'pros' should be teaching and stressing the limitations of the course as well. Newly minted OW divers shouldn't be diving to their max depths. Guides shouldn't be taking them there either.

This thread does indeed qualify for 'Near Misses', but with the OP on the defensive, I wonder whether it qualifies for 'Lessons Learned'.

 

[TSandM]

I remember my 5th dive . . . it was part of my AOW class, because I was so aware that I was unsafe diving independently that I refused to do it.

My first "independent" dive was my 10th, and even then, I had arranged an experienced buddy to go with me. But even then, I knew that I had to monitor my gas and we had to end the dive when I was getting low on it.

I guess I was lucky. I "grew up" in Puget Sound, where there are no DMs to dive with novices, and where, when you dive off a boat, you are truly on your own, because nobody from the boat is even in the water with you. I never conceived the idea that anybody else in the water was responsible for my safety. Maybe, instead of the skills we build in cold, murky water, THAT is the reason dive ops look at PNW divers and know we won't cause any problems?

 

[ScubaInChicago]

I never conceived the idea that anybody else in the water was responsible for my safety. Maybe, instead of the skills we build in cold, murky water, THAT is the reason dive ops look at PNW divers and know we won't cause any problems?

"""wooow....this wins the award for the most arrogant post i have seen on this board."""