Believe it or not, my anger isnt so much about what happened to me, it is that I know for a fact from my own observation there are many new divers graduating from OW courses who are shaky in their skills and are vulnerable. They need people around them who care what happens to them.
DM blew me off
- Thread starter brnt999
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Shasta_man
Contributor
Apparently they left a huge part out of your training which is that the only person responsible for you is you. I'm sure that greater responsibility conflicted with their "C'mon, take diving, it's easy." pitch. The DM is there to guide the dive and help with any emergencies and that's it. All of us divers are exclusively responsible for ourselves. We are responsible for staying with the team and notifying the team when we are going to leave it. I think that requirement is obvious when you consider the vast area of the ocean and trying to control a bunch of individuals. The follow-on idea that after this incident, you, at 25 dives, now know all about diving is equally concerning but we'll deal with that in a future Accidents thread. Just noted your latest post: you are not getting it. Of course people care but we can't save everybody out in the big ocean, so we train you to take care of yourself and, for heavens sake, maybe help someone else if they need it. Forget what you learned at the certification mill you went to and go talk to a good shop in the US of A. Not the one at the beach that signs up everybody but a real shop. After they get your money, they will tell you exactly the same thing we are.
ScubaSteve1962
Contributor
Your experience wasn't to your liking, but on any new divers first few dives they need to know they are in control of their dives, and really need to care about themselves and not depend on others. Express to you buddy your concerns. I did this and have seen others do this. Diver are a great group of people, and they really don't mind helping a newbie. (which I still am). I do dive vacations by myself so it's always in insta-buddy situation, I've had some great buddies and some lets just swim along buddies.
Darnold9999
Contributor
You are getting really good advice from some extremely experienced divers with many hundreds of dives all over the world and instead of learning from the experience you are focused on being right.
Unless you hired the DM specifically to assist you OR you had a specific conversation with the DM where he told you he would provide air to extend your dive he had no responsibility to you to do so. Simple as that. Perhaps he could have signaled you to surface when you signaled low on air at 50 bar, but not his job - particularly with a group of divers. His job - and his livelyhood depends on it - is to make sure all of the divers have a great dive. He gave up part of that responsibility when he spent part of the first dive providing air to you - he couldn't show cool stuff to others, by the sound of it wasn't leading divers to things to see but was just hovering watching - providing you with air.
The only oversite I see is that after that first dive he might have had a conversation with you about what to do when you became low on air on the second dive. He probably did that before anyone got in the water on the first dive, you should have done that with your buddy - and you should know that from your OW course. It is one of the first things any diver should discuss with a new buddy - what do we do when one of us gets low on air. If not discussed the assumption/default is that both will surface. It is not the DM's responsibilty to set low on air protocol for a group of divers - it is up to the buddy pair. If you didn't do this that is on you not the DM, you wern't listening during your OW course - this was covered.
Lots of DM's will set the protocol for a group - mostly it is we will all surface when the first person reaches X bar, signal me at half a tank and then again at 50 bar. It is more particularly NOT a DM's responsibility to provide air to you at depth if you run low, not on the first dive not on the second. It is something a DM might choose to do to extend a customer's bottom time so they have a better experience and their tip might be a little larger, but he may choose not to as well and both choices are just that, choices.
It seems you are focused on the fact that the DM did not take over your dive and guide you to the surface when you were low on air - do you imagine he was supposed to do this for each member of your group? Only the new divers? Only the air hogs? Doesn't make sense. You might instead want to focus on what you learned on that dive - that a DM is not going to babysit you or take responsibility for your survival on any dive. that is your job.
I am very confused. Are you venting about the DM, about certifying agencies, or that dive boats don't routinely provide babysitters just in case a new diver is on board?
What was your expectation for the DM. Did you hire him to personally dive with you to supervise your dive. Did you expect him to end everyone's dive? Or did you expect him to share air sooner so you could continue with your dive? In that case, if he was not your person DM and was sharing air with you, how was he to handle another diver in the group that had an underwater emergency?
I can understand to some extent your situation. As newbies on our third after OW dive we were the only two divers with a DM that acted like she was in a race around the reef and even after repeatedly signally her that my partner was low on air, we returned to the boat only after his air level was critically low. So I do understand your concern but with you as with us, the true error was on our part. We learned our lesson, bought SMB's, whistles and other safety gear to make sure we are always prepared to surface on our own.
This why I wrote this essay: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...ering-diving/283566-who-responsible-what.html
It was made a sticky in the New Divers forum. I have revised it a bit and it is on my website in my blog. It is also why I published my book in 2011. To address issues like these.
What happened here is what happens all too often with these types of courses. Correct me if I'm wrong but you did not go to Thailand for the purpose of getting certifed. This sounds like it was an impulse move to some extent. You did a discover, got talked into a McDonalds type certification - quick, looked good, smelled good, tasted good, and seemed fine at the time. Only to find out later down the road that not only was there no real substance or nutrition, but it also gave you the trots.
It sounds like you took a course without really researching it. No getting on line to see if you could find out what standards you should have been taught to, what other agencies there were, what other courses there were, and what exactly scuba diving is. And there are entities that count on that. They are focused on relieving you of your money. Giving you the bare minimum amount of instruction you need to barely survive and hope you dive with pro's all the time as otherwise you are likely to kill yourself.
In short you probably spent more time researching your last TV or smart phone purchase than you did this. Again those instructors, shops, and agencies count on this. They lie to you and tell you "Oh it's easy. Anyone can do it. It's as safe as riding a bike." Until the garbage truck comes through the intersection and reduces you to a bloody spot on the pavement.
If you paid $450.00 for what it sounds like you got, well, I hope they at least kissed you first.
A lesson that others can take from this is to stop and think before signing up for one of these courses. There is an internet. GET ON IT AND DO SOME RESEARCH! Please put at least as much thought into this as you would buying a new washing machine or dryer.
The next step I would take is not come down on all instructors. I would not and in fact could not take you into open water after such abbreviated instruction. I would not be allowed to even consider taking you into open water if I were not sure that you could do the following:
Properly weight yourself.
Assemble all your gear unaided.
Plan the dive with your buddy.
Judge if conditions were favorable for the dive for you both or if they were beyond your current skill and comfort level.
Do proper buddy checks without assistance from me.
Enter the water and stay together.
Do the dive.
Return safely from it as a buddy team.
Be ready to aid each other or another diver with basic rescue skills.
And do all of this without supervision from another dive professional.
Those are my agency's standards. I am required to provide you with 16 hours of pool instruction and 16 hours of classroom. I cannot teach a weekend course. I would not.
This activity has seen a number of changes in the short time (9 years now) that I have been certifed and a number of them for the worse IMO. The type of course you took is one of them. Rather than coming down on instructors your energy would be better spent on calling, emailing, and maybe even writing letters to the agencies that permit this stuff to go on. Start writing letters to the editor and posting on your facebook page how you were mislead by those who supposedly represent those who allow this type of instruction to go.
Then find an instructor that will show you how to really dive. Not some cut rate operation that only wants to show you how to spend your money.
---------- Post added March 11th, 2013 at 05:35 PM ----------
BULL CRAP! What they need is to not be issued an OW card until they are not shaky and vulnerable. RSTC Guidelines state that a new open water diver should be able to; Plan, execute, and safely return from a dive with a buddy of equal skill and training and no professional present. Get on the RSTC or WRSTC website. Look at the members who agreed to this. Then start questioning them as to why they are putting people in the water who can't meet those guidelines. I do know that one is meeting them. PDIC. They have the same standards as my agency and do not permit weekend or abbreviated courses.
It was made a sticky in the New Divers forum. I have revised it a bit and it is on my website in my blog. It is also why I published my book in 2011. To address issues like these.
What happened here is what happens all too often with these types of courses. Correct me if I'm wrong but you did not go to Thailand for the purpose of getting certifed. This sounds like it was an impulse move to some extent. You did a discover, got talked into a McDonalds type certification - quick, looked good, smelled good, tasted good, and seemed fine at the time. Only to find out later down the road that not only was there no real substance or nutrition, but it also gave you the trots.
It sounds like you took a course without really researching it. No getting on line to see if you could find out what standards you should have been taught to, what other agencies there were, what other courses there were, and what exactly scuba diving is. And there are entities that count on that. They are focused on relieving you of your money. Giving you the bare minimum amount of instruction you need to barely survive and hope you dive with pro's all the time as otherwise you are likely to kill yourself.
In short you probably spent more time researching your last TV or smart phone purchase than you did this. Again those instructors, shops, and agencies count on this. They lie to you and tell you "Oh it's easy. Anyone can do it. It's as safe as riding a bike." Until the garbage truck comes through the intersection and reduces you to a bloody spot on the pavement.
If you paid $450.00 for what it sounds like you got, well, I hope they at least kissed you first.
A lesson that others can take from this is to stop and think before signing up for one of these courses. There is an internet. GET ON IT AND DO SOME RESEARCH! Please put at least as much thought into this as you would buying a new washing machine or dryer.
The next step I would take is not come down on all instructors. I would not and in fact could not take you into open water after such abbreviated instruction. I would not be allowed to even consider taking you into open water if I were not sure that you could do the following:
Properly weight yourself.
Assemble all your gear unaided.
Plan the dive with your buddy.
Judge if conditions were favorable for the dive for you both or if they were beyond your current skill and comfort level.
Do proper buddy checks without assistance from me.
Enter the water and stay together.
Do the dive.
Return safely from it as a buddy team.
Be ready to aid each other or another diver with basic rescue skills.
And do all of this without supervision from another dive professional.
Those are my agency's standards. I am required to provide you with 16 hours of pool instruction and 16 hours of classroom. I cannot teach a weekend course. I would not.
This activity has seen a number of changes in the short time (9 years now) that I have been certifed and a number of them for the worse IMO. The type of course you took is one of them. Rather than coming down on instructors your energy would be better spent on calling, emailing, and maybe even writing letters to the agencies that permit this stuff to go on. Start writing letters to the editor and posting on your facebook page how you were mislead by those who supposedly represent those who allow this type of instruction to go.
Then find an instructor that will show you how to really dive. Not some cut rate operation that only wants to show you how to spend your money.
---------- Post added March 11th, 2013 at 05:35 PM ----------
BULL CRAP! What they need is to not be issued an OW card until they are not shaky and vulnerable. RSTC Guidelines state that a new open water diver should be able to; Plan, execute, and safely return from a dive with a buddy of equal skill and training and no professional present. Get on the RSTC or WRSTC website. Look at the members who agreed to this. Then start questioning them as to why they are putting people in the water who can't meet those guidelines. I do know that one is meeting them. PDIC. They have the same standards as my agency and do not permit weekend or abbreviated courses.
I don't think I am making myself clear. I don't have a problem taking responsibility for myself and my air and my surfacing and I wouldn't have at the time so long as the ground rules were clear as in, when you are low on air look after yourself and manage your ascent. The ground rules from the DM before the dive were follow me, follow my direction, signal me when you are low on air and I will help you ascend. I didn't ask him to share his air and didn't particularily want to either. He made that decision. I didn't want to use up my air first either but at the time it was beyond my control. The DM was stuck with a new diver who was an airhog--tough-he was paid by the dive shop to guide my dive. I would have gladly surfaced on my own but that is not what I was told to do.
I have dual feelings about this discussion. Sure, brnt999 ​needs to take a lesson from this thread, but the dive professionals here should also draw some conclusions from what he is saying. On one hand, it is all correct, that a diver is responsible for himself / herself. When the hand of the SPG comes to 50 bar mark, you surface and basta. However, I think, there is some kind of shortcoming in the OW course because it obviously doesn't always bring a diver to this level of autonomy. During my OW course the instructor was making decisions, when to surface and end the dive. I was just following his instructions. There was nothing in the whole course, that was cutting this umbilical. A new diver naturally perceives a DM as his next instructor. Yes, we know, this is wrong. But the apprehension of this mistake comes from experience, not from an OW course - at least in many cases. So how can a new diver know it on his 1st or 2nd dive? This is what the OP is asking about. For a newbie it would be natural to think that a DM is the best buddy. How could he possibly know that in fact a DM buddy is a bad luck?
On the OW course we learned different buddy techniques - buddy checks, gas sharing, etc. We were not taught how to buddy up with someone on a diveboat or how one should act on a dive boat, diving with a group. Nobody told us that we can hire a private dive guide. From the perspective of an experienced diver or a professional this seems self-evident, but it is not. Did you have this covered in your OW courses? I didn't. So where could I know all this from, when I came to my first dives after finishing the course?
My conclusion is that self reliance must be taught to new divers, not just presumed.
On the OW course we learned different buddy techniques - buddy checks, gas sharing, etc. We were not taught how to buddy up with someone on a diveboat or how one should act on a dive boat, diving with a group. Nobody told us that we can hire a private dive guide. From the perspective of an experienced diver or a professional this seems self-evident, but it is not. Did you have this covered in your OW courses? I didn't. So where could I know all this from, when I came to my first dives after finishing the course?
My conclusion is that self reliance must be taught to new divers, not just presumed.
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drbill said:
And that would be the very last time I would pay to dive with you.
Running low on air is not a reason to call off everyones dive. It happens and you should know how to deal with it.
The OP should have hired a private guide.
Yes there are emergencies, but this is not one. Learn from YOUR mistakes and move on.
I'm curious, how much did you tip the Dive Guide?
This is that gray area that crosses from dive guide into Adult Daycare Diving.... ADD
And that would be the very last time I would pay to dive with you.
Running low on air is not a reason to call off everyones dive. It happens and you should know how to deal with it.
The OP should have hired a private guide.
Yes there are emergencies, but this is not one. Learn from YOUR mistakes and move on.
I'm curious, how much did you tip the Dive Guide?
This is that gray area that crosses from dive guide into Adult Daycare Diving.... ADD
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