Review Diving the Avelo System

[Germie]

@Germie is the drysuit course not necessary? I’d heard the taught you how to pull out of an uncontrolled ascent due to shifting bubble, which seems important

No, the drysuit, and also sidemount are in my opinion the 'could be usefull' courses. Not required, but can be usefull. So I don't see that they are useless, but they are not needed for every diver.
Maybe it takes some more time to learn it yourself, but also that is not always true if you go with an experienced buddy.
You have the usefull courses like open water, advanced open water, cave, trimix, ccr.
The could be usefull courses like drysuit, sidemount, deep diver, but also an fundamentals/intro to tech.
And you have the just for fun or if you are interested courses like photography, biology, boat diver, etc.
If you want to follow the 'just for fun' and the 'could be usefull' courses I would advice you to go to someone that really practise what they preach, so really a sidemount diver, really a photographer, really someone who has affinity with underwater biology. Not an instructor that is just allowed to teach these courses.

So this said, I am not against such courses, but they are not usefull for every diver. And I share the avelo under the same. For me not needed, for others maybe usefull. So you know yourself best to know what works for you.
I got my drysuit cert with buying my first drysuit and have never seen an instructor. Here it is quite normal to buy a drysuit and don't do a course.

I am an instructor, but I am against just selling cards. If I teach, I want to have motivated students and want to be motivated myself too. I don't like it if people sell courses just to make money. And this means that if someone without a sidemount cert wants to start technical diving we do a 'let's know each other dive'. Then I know if the diver is able to handle it. But for a drysuit I have never asked for a cert, it is no requirement and I have never seen people here who cannot handle a drysuit if they sign up for a techcourse. Also for example courses like intro to tech are not required. For some I would advice them, for others not. I see enought divers who are able to start tech without such a course (and I see dives who I advice to do such a course).

 

[Still Kicking]

And the need of training is very very questionable. For myself I don't need training for this, I will be able to learn it in 1 dive, for sure. It is no rocketscience. It looks like diving a drysuit, a course can be ok if you are unsure, but is not a requirement.

And I read about 2lbs positive before a dive. That is really nothing if you are in big waves with current.

And also important, here no 300 bar fills in my backyard.

You may or may not need the training but any Avelo dive center will require it for liabilty reasons and because it's a major part of their business model.

 

[lowwall]

And also important, here no 300 bar fills in my backyard.

Again. The initial fill is not 300 bar. You fill it to something less than that. When add water ballast for the initial descent, the bladder inside the tank holding your gas obviously gets smaller, thus increasing the pressure of the gas inside the bladder. This is fine because it's all engineered to hold the higher pressure, but you will need a 300 bar DIN connection on your first stage.

 

[Germie]

Again. The initial fill is not 300 bar. You fill it to something less than that. When add water ballast for the initial descent, the bladder inside the tank holding your gas obviously gets smaller, thus increasing the pressure of the gas inside the bladder. This is fine because it's all engineered to hold the higher pressure, but you will need a 300 bar DIN connection on your first stage.

yes, but if you have just a 10 liter 200 bar, then it is less than an ali80 or ali12 liter 200 bars. The din connection is not strange, everybody dives here din.

BUT, and that is a big BUT. I have a key for our clubcompressor. This compressor gives 200 bars, also DIN connection. But the din connection does not fit on 300 bar valves. So this means even if I can fill only 200 bars, I cannot fill it with this compressor.

Further, it is most times only 250-270 bars what you get if you ask for 300. So not really usefull here.

 

[lowwall]

Further, it is most times only 250-270 bars what you get if you ask for 300. So not really usefull here.

I'm just trying to explain how this thing works in general. Whether it makes sense for any given dive or diver is obviously going to depend on their particular situation.

FWIW, I'd like to try it in a warm water dive some day. But I won't pay what they are currently asking for training and rental costs. I also suspect the whole thing is more likely to go bust than for those prices to go down to what I'd accept.

 

[Still Kicking]

yes, but if you have just a 10 liter 200 bar, then it is less than an ali80 or ali12 liter 200 bars. The din connection is not strange, everybody dives here din.

BUT, and that is a big BUT. I have a key for our clubcompressor. This compressor gives 200 bars, also DIN connection. But the din connection does not fit on 300 bar valves. So this means even if I can fill only 200 bars, I cannot fill it with this compressor.

Further, it is most times only 250-270 bars what you get if you ask for 300. So not really usefull here.

This is not the market for Avelo. I doubt they expect to sell many units to self-sufficient divers. The system is tailored to resorts and traveling divers.

 

[A34735]

Interesting, you have all of the same "failure points" of a "standard" SCUBA rig, and the Avelo system found a way to add at least:
1. Battery and wiring
2. Battery cap
3. Electrical Switch
4. mechanical pump
5. Pump Cap
6. Pump valve and purge
7. plumbing from pump to tank inlet (with QD)
8. internal tank bladder

More problematic, should the Hydrotank fail, does not seem I can seamlessly remove the Jetpac from it and throw it on a standard tank so I can keep diving. Meaning, you cant travel far from the "host" with this system.

Now, I get it, my wing has a bladder and purge but those have no effect on the operation of my SCUBA.

Per their Technical Specs, I'm trying to figure how my BP/Wing with an Alum 80 requires 14-28 pounds of additional weight? That's some "new math"?

Bottom line, this seems to be a solution to a problem that did not exist. Better get out your Amex Black Card.....

Absolutely agree. The problem these folks are trying to solve has long since been solved, very well! Battery dependent? Electrical connections in saltwater? Really?

Good buoyancy control with a STAB, ABLJ or BCD is quickly achieved by almost any novice with a good instructor. And novices' buoyancy control soon becomes excellent and automatic, usually with 5 or fewer dives after certification.

I really thought this was an April Fool's joke or some other spoof. Then I realized these people are serious....

This will be relegated the dustbin of pointless but incrementally dangerous scuba innovations after the first fatality with this system, which I predict will happen within a couple of years. Waivers will not save a company that introduces extra, unnecessary, avoidable risk into a risky pastime that has become steadily less risky after years of incremental kit and training improvements.

Or they'll wind themselves up as would-be investors, realizing what a bone-headed, high-liability, low reward idea this is, evaporate.

Only the naive, gullible or stupid would think this was a worthwhile addition to the evolution of recreational scuba diving.

 

[SouthernSharktoothDiver]

I would actually like to know what Avelo's finances look like. It feels like they probably have a lot of investment, and only just recently starting generating revenue, so like, even by the most optimistic assessments, what's their pay back timeline look like? It's gotta be on the order of a decade, surely.

 

[tridacna]

I would actually like to know what Avelo's finances look like. It feels like they probably have a lot of investment, and only just recently starting generating revenue, so like, even by the most optimistic assessments, what's their pay back timeline look like? It's gotta be on the order of a decade, surely.

Interesting business plan for sure. They are spending money at a pretty fast clip too. I can’t imagine any real revenue yet.

 

[SouthernSharktoothDiver]

@tridacna Bear in mind, my knowledge of such things mostly comes from Shark Tank (The show, something which probably does need to be specified, given the nature of this website), but I do wonder why venture capitalists were willing to go along with such a long term investment. This project is years in the making, and even now has only just opened for sales, and even at $3000 per jetpack, they sure have to sell quite a few to break even. I do not mean to cast doubts on the product, but the scuba industry is littered with "innovations" that died in infancy. I sure wouldn't have the stomach for such an investment, and so I wonder how all this came to pass.

I also kind of see an issue with Avelo as a product. Other devices have entered the scuba industry and swept it by storm: dive computers, Air Integration, power inflators, even the BCD if you go back far enough. Like Avelo, none of these are strictly necessary for diving, but make things "better" in some way. However, all of these innovations could be added on to existing diving with minimal changes. A diver with a computer could dive like he always dove, same setup and gear, with an added source of information that, if desired, could simply be ignored. The power inflator could always be disconnected and dove in oral inflate if found to be troublesome.

Avelo, on the other hand, requires a pretty large scale change to how you dive. You need a different tank, completely different methods of adjusting buoyancy, batteries must be charged and kept in good condition, you can no longer become extremely positive if you should want to, these and many other new factors must be addressed. The development and addition of BCD's is probably the closest comparison, but I think it's too different to match up. When BCD's were first developed, diving was extremely niche, meaning many new adopters had never known any other style, and the BCD truly added a new capability not formerly possessed, whereas Avelo, at best, improves on an existing capacity.

And of course, there is cost and convenience to consider. Even the newest, most cutting edge dive computer costs far less than a Jetpack, and that's without the cost of the new hydrotank. Service won't be widely available, locally, for many years at best...and I think at least some people, surely, must be considering that if the device should not prove profitable, if Avelo should go broke, there will be no one to service their very expensive purchase.

It's a huge change to ask of people, and that's where I think the idea will likely fail, if there goal is to sell this to existing divers. Even if Avelo is "sublime" at managing buoyancy, it's not a rebreather, which allows you to do something you simply couldn't do without it. It's an improvement over something that currently works, and I simply don't think most people will be willing to pay this amount and change their whole setup for something that is merely better, even if it is radically so.

Like many, I think the best shot is to sell this to resorts and other dive operators catering to vacationers looking to try and easier, less stressful form of diving. Your typical "once a year" diver, who does not own his own gear and frankly does not practice his buoyancy often enough to manage it well, might well be willing to pay 50-100% more for a form of diving that makes things easier for him to manage. And so the question becomes, will enough such resorts be willing to pay ~$30-50,000 on a stock of jetpacks, hydrotanks, training courses and guides to offer this service. They might, but it will take a while if it does happen. Which brings me back to: I wonder how they plan to keep their investors happy in the meantime? It also makes me think, they're probably turning a pretty high margin on the system right now. The cost will likely drop a lot if/when this takes off. As always, it pays to be a later adopter.