Diving techniques: New vs Old

[Eric Sedletzky]

Equipment is different. You can't go back.

I don’t care what you say, I am not giving up my Freedom Pack and wing for straps on a bare tank and a horse collar!

I was thinking more in terms of the training standards and all ther hoops they made people go through to build confidence and stamina. The whole program would be done with completely modern gear of their choice.
No there isn't any way to literally go back in terms of using all the vintage gear, that's silly, I was imagining a completely modernized program relevant to todays equipment. There needs to be more watermanship and stamina building which leads to higher comfort levels in the water. It couldn't be an all inclusive course where everyone passes and gets a brownie button. People would need to know that going in. If they didn't have what it took to pass the plus program maybe they could give them a discounted or free open water class or something.

Replacing regular open water with such a class would be a death sentence for an agency, but run it as an optional class and it would become quite an item.

 

[Akimbo]

I was thinking more in terms of the training standards and all ther hoops they made people go through to build confidence and stamina. The whole program would be done with completely modern gear of their choice.
No there isn't any way to literally go back in terms of using all the vintage gear, that's silly, I was imagining a completely modernized program relevant to todays equipment. There needs to be more watermanship and stamina building which leads to higher comfort levels in the water. It couldn't be an all inclusive course where everyone passes and gets a brownie button. People would need to know that going in. If they didn't have what it took to pass the plus program maybe they could give them a discounted or free open water class or something.

Replacing regular open water with such a class would be a death sentence for an agency, but run it as an optional class and it would become quite an item.

OK, my shameless Freedom Pack plug wasn't funny… I tried.

I applaud your intensions. Like all mature markets, which sport diving certainly is, it requires marketing. My guess is that developing a unique reputation, perhaps independent of dive shops, and offering interesting experiences is in the equation somewhere. I am thinking out loud here and will list random thoughts for discussion and the doubtless correction it deserves.

Start with a business plan. Numbers are for easier reference and feel free to add your own:

1. Will you be appealing to people interested in technical training?

2. Will you appeal to graduates from the dumb'd-down courses?

3. Will ideal students be raw recruits?

4. Are your candidates likely to be testosterone-charged young Turks or more mature folks who realize how lame the basic class was?

5. How will graduates be recognized in this merit badge oriented environment that has evolved? It may be kind of iffy for someone to get a tank filled with a card from the Freedom Diving Academy, at first anyway.

6. Is there a market as a prep-school for military and commercial divers?

7. You aren’t in business without a Web site anymore. Describe how it would look (content and graphics).

8. What would you use for training materials? Navy manual, computer printed handouts, Web classes for paid students and alumni?

9. Any ideas on prerequisites?

10. Any ideas on curriculum?

11. Any ideas on what will attract interested student/customers?

12. Will you seek local students or world-wide (Web)?

13. What can be taught that will make your services unique and your customers so proud/happy/whatever that they will do all the marketing that you won’t be able to afford at first?

There may be an interesting model developing in freediving courses — big names (in that little world) as a draw and intensive four day courses resulting in rave reviews. People drop well over a $1,000 per head on these courses by the time it all-in, unless they happen to live in the town where the course is held.

It is raining, the seas are up, and this is interesting.

 

[DCBC]

And for the 50 year old overweight out of shape person there would always be the standard PADI class for them.

Training depends largely on the agency and in most cases the instructor. There are some agencies that the certification means nothing to me (including instructor). Their credibility has unfortunately gone down that much.

 

[herman]

… ................................I don’t care what you say, I am not giving up my Freedom Pack and wing for straps on a bare tank and a horse collar!

Don't be too quick to judge before trying it...
And for the record, most of us use the HC only when forced to do so by the dive op...(and when forced to, I use a plate and wing...Express tech actully...and slip off the wing if they are not paying attention). To quote an old add..."Try it, you might like it".

 

[Akimbo]

Don't be too quick to judge before trying it...
And for the record, most of us use the HC only when forced to do so by the dive op...(and when forced to, I use a plate and wing...Express tech actully...and slip off the wing if they are not paying attention). To quote an old add..."Try it, you might like it".

I have made hundreds of dives on doubles and a few on singles with strap harnesses, before, in, and after the Navy. What I personally don’t like about strap harnesses are:

• Cylinders shift around too much even with chest and crotch straps
• Cylinders ride higher than I prefer
• Straps are a hassle to store in quantity compared to bare cylinders

My biggest reservation with the late 1970s era blow-molded plastic back packs was they only had one tank band, much less robust cam clamps, and were relatively delicate. I never needed chest or crotch straps on them. I only used a Fenzy horse collar BC on deeper and/or on working dives. I switched to a wing in the early 80s.

Some of the differences in our preferences probably come from thermal protection requirements. Dry suits are too delicate for most of what I do and I rarely see water above 52° F. Since new wetsuit materials are so much more buoyant and compressible than Rubatex, it is not as easy to get by without a BC — horse collar, wing, or poodle jacket. A 20 Lb change in suit buoyancy is a lot to swim against. Adjusting based on working depth is fine until deco stops enter the profile. It is not often I can dive a drysuit, but using one un-tethered without a BC is pretty high risk due to catastrophic buoyancy loss (like punching big holes it the #*&! thing) that dropping lead can't compensate for.

So, why do I like the Freedom Plate? It gives me the quick adjustment of a blow-molded plastic pack, it adds weight that would otherwise be on my belt, wings easily attach, it works on bail-outs yet still fits through the bell's hatch, and it will take lots of abuse.

All the other plates I have seen are no better than the old strap harness except for weight distribution (which is way cheaper with lead) and easier wing attachment.

Different conditions, tasks, body geometry, and personal idiosyncrasies pretty much kills the one-size-fits-all concept. Nobody has come up with the ultimate hammer, I don’t expect to get there with dive gear anytime soon.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Training depends largely on the agency and in most cases the instructor. There are some agencies that the certification means nothing to me (including instructor). Their credibility has unfortunately gone down that much.

Yeah, I've heard that line too myself "It's the instructor, not the agency"
But the fact remains the instructor, no matter how good, still has to follow the protocol set forth by the agency and follow the course material set by the agency.
Some instructors are just more thorough about it.

So I guess in reality one could say that the instructor is really no better than the agency they choose to teach through. Maybe some agencies give a little more leeway but some do not - you follow the book.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

OK, my shameless Freedom Pack plug wasn't funny… I tried.

I applaud your intensions. Like all mature markets, which sport diving certainly is, it requires marketing. My guess is that developing a unique reputation, perhaps independent of dive shops, and offering interesting experiences is in the equation somewhere. I am thinking out loud here and will list random thoughts for discussion and the doubtless correction it deserves.

Start with a business plan. Numbers are for easier reference and feel free to add your own:

1. Will you be appealing to people interested in technical training?

2. Will you appeal to graduates from the dumb'd-down courses?

3. Will ideal students be raw recruits?

4. Are your candidates likely to be testosterone-charged young Turks or more mature folks who realize how lame the basic class was?

5. How will graduates be recognized in this merit badge oriented environment that has evolved? It may be kind of iffy for someone to get a tank filled with a card from the Freedom Diving Academy, at first anyway.

6. Is there a market as a prep-school for military and commercial divers?

7. You aren’t in business without a Web site anymore. Describe how it would look (content and graphics).

8. What would you use for training materials? Navy manual, computer printed handouts, Web classes for paid students and alumni?

9. Any ideas on prerequisites?

10. Any ideas on curriculum?

11. Any ideas on what will attract interested student/customers?

12. Will you seek local students or world-wide (Web)?

13. What can be taught that will make your services unique and your customers so proud/happy/whatever that they will do all the marketing that you won’t be able to afford at first?

There may be an interesting model developing in freediving courses — big names (in that little world) as a draw and intensive four day courses resulting in rave reviews. People drop well over a $1,000 per head on these courses by the time it all-in, unless they happen to live in the town where the course is held.

It is raining, the seas are up, and this is interesting.

Actually, I wasn't thinking so much for myself to try and get this set up, I was thinking more like PADI doing it. I know, before you hit the floor laughing , they really need to think about doing something like this because it's gotten rediculous.
It would be a win win for everybody. PADI likes money and they would get to sell a very expensive course, and the student would get a first class training program better than if you were to take all the PADI classes short of DM.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I have made hundreds of dives on doubles and a few on singles with strap harnesses, before, in, and after the Navy. What I personally don’t like about strap harnesses are:

• Cylinders shift around too much even with chest and crotch straps
• Cylinders ride higher than I prefer
• Straps are a hassle to store in quantity compared to bare cylinders

My biggest reservation with the late 1970s era blow-molded plastic back packs was they only had one tank band, much less robust cam clamps, and were relatively delicate. I never needed chest or crotch straps on them. I only used a Fenzy horse collar BC on deeper and/or on working dives. I switched to a wing in the early 80s.

Some of the differences in our preferences probably come from thermal protection requirements. Dry suits are too delicate for most of what I do and I rarely see water above 52° F. Since new wetsuit materials are so much more buoyant and compressible than Rubatex, it is not as easy to get by without a BC — horse collar, wing, or poodle jacket. A 20 Lb change in suit buoyancy is a lot to swim against. Adjusting based on working depth is fine until deco stops enter the profile. It is not often I can dive a drysuit, but using one un-tethered without a BC is pretty high risk due to catastrophic buoyancy loss (like punching big holes it the #*&! thing) that dropping lead can't compensate for.

So, why do I like the Freedom Plate? It gives me the quick adjustment of a blow-molded plastic pack, it adds weight that would otherwise be on my belt, wings easily attach, it works on bail-outs yet still fits through the bell's hatch, and it will take lots of abuse.

All the other plates I have seen are no better than the old strap harness except for weight distribution (which is way cheaper with lead) and easier wing attachment.

Different conditions, tasks, body geometry, and personal idiosyncrasies pretty much kills the one-size-fits-all concept. Nobody has come up with the ultimate hammer, I don’t expect to get there with dive gear anytime soon.

Thanks for the great plug for the Freedom Plate. A good review coming from someone that has been in diving as long as you (in military, commercial, professional, recreational) it says quite a bit that you like it that much.

BTW, Rubatex skin x 2 (Skin both sides) G-231N can still be purchased directly from Rubatex. G-231N (nitrogen blown) is still available in 3/16", 1/4", 5/16", 3/8", and 1/2". They do not sell G-231N with one side lycra or nylon any longer.

 

[Bob DBF]

Unfortunately these days the gear is so darned good that anyone with minimal training and intelligence will be an accident free diver so...... The people that want the comprehensive training now will find it in the military, commercial, technical, or be inclined to read and train themselves and/or find a like minded instructor (a number of which I've spotted are on this board) to continue their skills.

Times are quite different than in the beginning of recreational scuba as you know. Swimming the equipment up and down was not an option and surfacing and having to inflate a horse collar through a modified tire valve to have buoyancy was a pain in the butt. Not having a SPG made OOG more than just a drill, then buddy breathing on a double hose. The reason divers were trained more was because just being underwater was pushing the envelope and the equipment used is considered obsolete now and hazardous then. This meant you had to be at home in and under the water before you trained on scuba, sadly this is no longer the case.


Considering the methods now it is well that the training reinforces the idea of depth limits on new divers and continued training. The training from my dad and my continued diving made it easy to do my OW and I'm seeing how far that and my continued diving will carry me in future diving classes.

Bob
---------------------------------------
I may be old but I'm not dead yet.

 

[duckbill]

But if someone flashed a plus card on a dive boat when it was sign up time, that plus card would really mean something.

Yep. I have my NAUI Openwater l from 1985, and my NAUI Advanced Scuba Diver from 2006. Guess which one I felt I really had to earn, which one I am proud of, and which one I flash to the operators. I basically only got the ASD because my original OWl card is starting to look "well used", plus I'm on a 21 year cycle. I was 21 when I got my OWl, 42 when I got my ASD, and I'll be 63 at my next diving course!