Diving on tables

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MonkSeal:
Here's good article that I believe contain answers to your questions:

http://www.dir-diver.com/en/knowledge/average_depth.html
Peter Steinhoff's website has a wealth of information. By far the best, clearest descriptions of DIR methods that I've seen.

Although that article is about mandatory decompression diving, it appears that his usual choice is to weight the average 75% towards the deeper depth when doing a reverse profile during a dive.

I don't see immediately an easy mental method of applying that for a dive that (at 5 minute intervals) is 60,60,60,100,.... , but in any case it looks like it comes up pretty close to my dumbed down method which is to split the difference between the straight average depth method and the conservative "everything at deepest depth" method. In other words, it looks like his answer (and indeed his method) aren't that much different than my "just kind of fudge it and figure that somewhere around 10 minutes at 100' / 25 minutes total bottom time is about right".
 
Thanks for the straight answers and math. I'm still working things out in terms of the math and various statements I've heard, but I do have a partial understanding of how it's done and that's what I was after.

Again thanks.
 
Charlie99:
Since you actually answer questions, here's a follow-up question.

When going first to 100'/30m for a while, then afterwards to 60'/18m it makes sense to average.

How about the case where you are at 60'/18m for say, something like 15 minutes, and then head on down to 100'? (Just assume that there IS a valid reason for such profile, such a 60' shelf and a 100' shelf on a shore dive). Let's further assume that you are using a minimum deco table with limits of 30 minutes at 80'/24m and 20 minutes at 100'/30m.


Do you do the very conservative "treat it all as 100'/30m'" and figure you have 5 minutes left at 100'/30m / 20 minutes total bottom time to stay within minimum deco limits?

It seems that doing just a simple average and figuring that you have 15 minutes left at 100'/30m, for total bottom time of 30 minutes is too aggressive or liberal. Agreed?

Or do you just kind of fudge it and figure that some where around 10 minutes is about right?

Thanks in advance,

Charlie Allen

gas loading is all about exponential curves. if you do a forward profile where the you go from 110 feet to 90 feet you can use a linear approximation to how the gas loading changes in the beginning of the dive where a small percentage change around the depth produces a roughly linear difference in gas loading.

this is similar to what you do in physics when you take a pendulum described by:

F = -k sin theta

and replace it by a simple harmonic oscillator (hooke's law):

F = -k theta

because when theta is small:

sin theta ~= theta

if you graph sin theta you can see that around theta=0 it is nearly a 45 degree angle.

now, if you do a reverse profile this approximation is no longer valid, and its better to just use the table value for the max depth that you wound up at.

however, we still do depth averaging even on reverse profiles (at least I use this in the near-to-NDL regime) the slow compartments aren't going to saturate and can still be treated with depth averaging, which affects the shallow stops. the fast compartments are going to get hammered by whatever depth you wind up at. so, on a reverse profile betwen 100-120 where the average depth is 110, i'd do shallow stops timed like it was 110, but start deep stops like it was 120.

(this isn't taught in any DIR class, its just applying approximation methods to exponential functions...)

also, if you're doing large differences in depths, i'd suggest using different approaches. for example, on a dive where you do 10 mins at 100 fsw and then move up to 60 fsw, I'd double time time at 100 fsw and take that of the NDL at 60 fsw. the logic here is that the really fast compartments hammered by 100 fsw are going to actually offgas a little bit at 60 fsw, and you mostly want to look at the effect on the controlling compartment at 60 fsw (the controlling compartment won't actually be identical, but it'll be close), so i'd take the 55 min NDL value (air) and subtract 20 mins to get 35 mins.
 
also, approximation methods are one of the best physics final exam survival techniques that there is. you can look at a really complicated problem and it 20 seconds go "hmm.... ought to be about two" and then 20 minutes later you get the answer "2.12345" and you know you're in the right ballpark.

now in diving if the difference between "2.0" and "2.12345" gets you hurt or bent you are doing insufficient decompression -- but (turning this on its head) since most recreational divers do insufficient decompression (30 fpm to 3 @ 15 is insufficient for a dive to the limits of the air NDL at 100 fsw) that implies they probably shouldn't try to do mental depth averaging. the prerequisites for depth averaging are being able to hold stops and do 'lite' amounts of decompression and holding enough rockbottom gas in reserve so that you don't have to directly ascend to the surface, even in the event of catastrophic gas loss due to free-flow. naturally you also need to be able to hold your stops and do air-shares and all those other fundamental skills first as well.

plus if you do 3 fpm ascents from 30 feet (particularly on 21%), you'll feel a whole lot better afterwards...
 
lamont:
however, we still do depth averaging even on reverse profiles (at least I use this in the near-to-NDL regime)

Lamont, how woud one do the following dive which has a reverse profile, averaged 55 feet for about 70 minutes on EAN32. I was really surprised the Suunto did not go into deco on this dive:

reverse-profile.jpg
 
TheRedHead:
Lamont, how woud one do the following dive which has a reverse profile, averaged 55 feet for about 70 minutes on EAN32. I was really surprised the Suunto did not go into deco on this dive:

reverse-profile.jpg

i'd call that 70 fsw average for the beginning of the dive, which gives you at least 60 mins on 32%. at 60 mins into the dive you were at 40 fsw, 5 mins later you did roughly a 10 min ascent from 40 to the surface...

seems fine to me.

although another part of depth averaging is that I like to divide the dive up into the "deep" portion of the dive, the "multilevel" portion of the dive and the "shallow/deco" portion of the dive and when you hit your deep NDL you should scoot. so a typical multilevel dive for me might be spent between 90-100 fsw at an average depth of 100 fsw for 30 mins, then scooting up to at least 60 fsw in a few minutes (then generally spending 10-15 mins moving up to 40 fsw). the gentle slope can get you into trouble since if you cross the NDL and then move up only very slowly you can get yourself into quite a bit of deco because you don't move fast enough to really stop ongassing and you just shove your most saturated compartment to longer half-time and harder to get rid of... doing air dives where you meander upwards would be particularly bad...
 
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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