Diving Accident, Self-Responsibility and Balance

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Before every dive vacation, I plan to review the steps, write them down on a note pad as a list, then take the notepad with me, and precisely follow every step to ensure the equipment is in good working order before getting in the water.
Do it.
Rebreather divers use written checklists.
You can write a checklist on a slate and check point by point. If you do that regularly you will soon know the list by heart. Always adhering to the same sequence avoids missing out on an item. Soon you will be able to do without the slate but you might want to keep it and use it on the first dives of your next diving holiday.
 
Tek divers do a buddy gear check JUST BEFORE every dive:

air: tank open, pressure, MOD, how to close tank, 2nd stage trial
Floating devices: inflate, deflate, dump valves
lines: reel, lenght of line, SMB
Knife and lamps
weight, fins, mask and finally computor on.
 
The fight or flight response activates our reptilian brain and anything which is learned externally and cognitively that is not consistent with the basic coding in our primitive/reptilian brain we either don't do or we can't do it.
So am I correct in summarizing your point as follows? Sorry, I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but I just want to understand:

1) Fight or flight (FOF) is an inevitable reaction to a significant stressor, in this case the presumed episode of EIB.

2) FOF then caused her to lose the ability to perform procedures that she had previously been able to do.

3) This loss of ability was inevitable given the FOF, and there was nothing that could have stopped it, making her need for rescue also inevitable.
Not to put words in your mouth, it is much broader than just not being able to perform the two tasks you listed.
So it is a state much broader and complex than the one you try to reduce at minimum.

Are there not formal scientific peer reviewed studies on fight or flight response?
It reads to me like you are both actually describing the same situation, which is that FOF impairs the diver's ability to function and execute his/her trained responses required for the underwater environment. By my understanding, this is not a binary (on-off) phenomenon, but a spectrum - with at one extreme end a complete loss of ability ('paralyzed with fear'), to the other end where the diver might still be thinking the right things but has lost some dexterity.

Either way, the characteristic is a loss of ability when needed; someone who can demonstrate the ability on land or confined water, but not when 'in trouble'. But is it inevitable (unavoidable)? If you take the position that this is binary (on-off), then I can see why you would conclude 'yes'. If it is on a spectrum of responses, then surely the answer would be 'no' - not inevitable - there are thing that a diver could do to reverse the situation and regain control.




But, I did not do any kind of pre-dive check except looking at the O2 gauge.
I check my O2 frequently and knew I was good on that.

I don't want to be too picky, but am touching on it here because I did notice you posting something similar before. Just wanted to check you know that you were not checking your O2. A minor point which will be useful if you ever move to using Nitrox, something worth considering as one gets older.
***As I think about it, this is quite possible. I was so focused on getting pics and video to show off to friends and family, I know now I was not paying attention to several, more important aspects of the dive. Someone mentioned that earlier, and I smugly disregarded it. My husband and I watched for then first time two other videos I took on the dive and it is obvious that I was fighting the current, unbalanced and DETERMINED to get a pic of something. The camera really distracted me and that was bad.
I feel a bit awkward raising this again, as it is possible by your reply that you might have missed my (admittedly pedantic) point.
I noticed on the earlier posts that you referred to your breathing gas as Oxygen, and it is possible you were using this as a typing shortcut on this forum or perhaps it is a common use of language where you dive or where you were trained. It is of course compressed air, but this subtle point might make a difference if you were actually asking for Oxygen at another time.

Your reply is in itself important because it relates to bowlofpetunias later posting:
I know some mention the camera contributing to task loading. I am going to say something a little controversial here. I started using a simple point and shoot camera early on. I honestly feel it helped me relax more diving.:duck: It took my focus off stressing about exactly how I was breathing and bouyancy etc and let it come more naturally.
As that is indeed controversial, and a good thing that task loading is mentioned in the first sentence!
There is a time in a diver's development when they start to focus less inwardly upon themselves and more on what is going on around them. I think one can recognise another stage when they start to pay attention to what potentially risky stuff other divers are doing.

The first stage can happen quite naturally and spontaneously for some divers, others might need some form of 'distraction', which 'could' come from having a camera when protected by the right circumstances. I would suggest it 'better' to start noticing marine life and marine behaviours, either spontaenously or through more formal training (e.g., underwater naturalist), or just having fun. Either way, one could argue that the diver is being 'distracted', but (depending on the complexity of the kit) I believe there is more risk of task loading with a camera. The balanced choice is dependent on how good the diver is at multitasking and how good he/she is with skills.

As before, I believe that if a diver is not naturally talented or developing the skills for underwater photography spontaneously, then formal training is helpful (my suggestion for such courses being: peak performance buoyancy, underwater naturalist and underwater photographer/videographer), before bringing a camera into the equation.

Some divers also develop the other stage spontaneously, TBH but I didn't even recognise this stage until after I started the Rescue course. It opened my awareness to what is going on everywhere around me in any particular dive. One way of testing myself with this is to pay attention to the post-dive chat. How often do I hear about an event that I had missed underwater....
 
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It reads to me like you are both actually describing the same situation, which is that FOF impairs the diver's ability to function and execute his/her trained responses required for the underwater environment. By my understanding, this is not a binary (on-off) phenomenon, but a spectrum - with at one extreme end a complete loss of ability ('paralyzed with fear'), to the other end where the diver might still be thinking the right things but has lost some dexterity.


Of course it is a spectrum, that was my point. The only reason that I was trying to drill down on gianaameri's posts was that it seemed that he was implying a sort of passive inevitability bolstered by a few scientific terms and an offhand appeal to neuroscience research in general.

Thea experienced a real event which caused her respiratory distress and which triggered the fight or flight response which in turn produces the behavior which she described....We are coded to go into fight or flight response and there is no stopping it, same as you can't stop your heart beating....It is unlikely you'd be capable to carry out anything complex other than continue breathing the gas you already have from the reg in your mouth and continue kicking.


And while perhaps in his situation (and Thea's) they truly were paralyzed to the point of breathing and surfacing only, I didn't want to let other new divers reading the thread reach the conclusion that such a deterioration of abilities was inevitable.

In actual fact, a huge part of dive training is to do what TSandM said - to make you better and better able to perform standard procedures even if you have some sort of external stressor. Indeed, one concept that I recall from training is to never give up, no matter what - the urge to shut down can and must be be resisted, through training and focus.

Because if you just accept the assumption that once those neurotransmitters kick in, you are left with your reptilian brain and you can't do anything besides breathe, then you shouldn't be diving at all.
 
Yes, in my personal experience the FOF symptoms listed in Wikipedia are not necessarily all present on every FOF event

So it seems the brain can cause different graded responses in different situations ("a spectrum").

For me, respiratory distress underwater brought about every symptom except having to empty my bowels.

On two other occasions on land the only symptom was having to empty my bowels.

On one occasion we developed a rule, "The beginners s. themselves during it, while the advanced afterwards."

I suspect respiratory distress underwater is some of the strongest trigger of FOF and at the mild end of the FOF symptoms you just have s. yourself and at the far end you ger tunnel vision and full impairment of externally learned cognitive skills.

The impulse to s. yourself is so powerful that it causes you to literally run away to do it (or else). Very effective flight trigger.

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
 
Thea you recently said: "Thinking about this (and yes, I still am, a lot) it seems like I was having a bit of trouble breathing as soon as we descended, but blamed it on the weight belt being to tight. Even though in reality, it wasn't."

Perhaps I missed something in an earlier post, please correct me in that case. In the meantime, my reading of your words above have left me wondering whether your BCD was a bad fit and too tight for you.(cumberbund, straps, clips etc). This may not have been immediately apparent to you because your shoulder straps had not yet been tightened up. What do you think/recall about this as a potential starting point of your breathing feeling tight instead of it being what you thought of as your weight belt being too tight?

I note you've read "The Last Dive" twice. May I recommend a book that could be more beneficial to you at your stage of development as a diver. "Diver Down"

Thanks for sharing with us.

I have "Diver Down" and read it over several times before my last dive trip. I also have visited this site many times, and watched every video I could find on You Tube regarding dive accidents and dive panic. This trip, I was so busy with work, with packing, etc., I did not review ANYthing. The BCD was a little snug, but I am top heavy. I remember when the DM inflated my BCD at the top, thinking it was SUPER tight, it was like a big bear hug. But, it kept my above water, which was a really good place to be at the time.
Like Bowlofpetunias said, I am literally using new equipment every time I dive.
 
On one occasion we developed a rule, "The beginners s. themselves during it, while the advanced afterwards."
:laughing: I like it!
Well, at least there is a evidence of a spectrum!:wink:
On Wiki, there is also another undesirable side effect of FOF which is 'loss of erection'; I wonder how they tested that out, but I guess that will be for another kind of Forum...
 
Thanks for responding Thea. I reread my copy quite often too.

My wish for you is that you'll have a good health check up. And my belief is that when you do, you'll be looking for your own gear. I'm top heavy too and very happy with my Ladyhawk, though it did scare the crap out of me the first few dives, on the surface that is. my first backinflate and I felt tipped over face first. Only took a couple of dives to catch the proper handling of it. Now I'm so darn comfortable, that is rare to remember those first dives with it, but when I do it's always with surprise that I'd had anything other than the complete comfort.

You appear to have the love for diving coupled with the desire to be knowledgeable and prepared. When you get back at it, nothing but good times ahead.
 
Yes, in my personal experience the FOF symptoms listed in Wikipedia are not necessarily all present on every FOF event

So it seems the brain can cause different graded responses in different situations ("a spectrum").

Good! Then perhaps we are saying the same thing.

Can we agree that while an external stressor can cause a paralyzing physiological response, the goal of every diver should be to do whatever we can through training to make that response less and less likely to incapacitate us, no matter what our norepinephrine levels are?
 
It was really eye opening when you said that I am diving with essentially different equipment every time. Off to research the issue! Thank you!
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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