Diving Accident, Self-Responsibility and Balance

[bowlofpetunias]

Seems to me that if gear issues could have contributed to the breathing issues in this incident discussion of gear isn't off topic. I suspect I would have found weightbelts less of an issue had I used one of these.

The other thing that comes to mind Thea. You mentioned feeling like you couldn't get your head above the waves and also mentioned a back inflate BCD. If you are not used to these they can shift you forward. You need to position yourself a bit more than 90degrees to the surface to shift your weight back onto the bladder to avoid this. Easy to do and if you are used to the BCD you do it naturally. back to familiarity with the gear.

I know some mention the camera contributing to task loading. I am going to say something a little controversial here. I started using a simple point and shoot camera early on. I honestly feel it helped me relax more diving. It took my focus off stressing about exactly how I was breathing and bouyancy etc and let it come more naturally.

 

[gianaameri]

Thanks for the interesting discussion of ACTH, adrenaline, noradrenaline, and the legal sequelae of the Cocoanut Grove nightclub fire of 1942.

Now, could you please answer my question? That is, have I correctly summarized your position with those three points above? And if not, please tell me where I have it wrong...

Here, I'll simplify what I think you are trying to say:

EIB -> FOF -> inability to drop weight belt or inflate BC -> need for rescue.

Is this correct?

Respirarory distress triggers fight or flight response and the diver is incapable to perform any cognitively learned task which conflicts with the coding of the primitive brain now driving the behavioral response.

Not to put words in your mouth, it is much broader than just not being able to perform the two tasks you listed.

When it happened to me I was aware and was able to reason that my switching from the reg. (a BOV) in my mouth to a better breathing one around my neck would improve my situation, but I was not even willing to try. The external observer would have perceived me just accelerating in one direction of the cave line blowing bubbles like mad (RMV was no less than 60 l/m) in what he would describe as panic, but I had no fear of dying (although there was an overwhelming fear which was driving me away and out) and although capable of rational thought the only actions I could perform was breathe and swim to get out (flight).

I suspect Thea was going through something similar. Aware of her training and options, but incapable to carry anything out other than swimming hard out to open air.

So it is a state much broader and complex than the one you try to reduce at minimum.

Are there not formal scientific peer reviewed studies on fight or flight response?

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[Peter69_56]

Seems to me that if gear issues could have contributed to the breathing issues in this incident discussion of gear isn't off topic. I suspect I would have found weightbelts less of an issue had I used one of these.

The other thing that comes to mind Thea. You mentioned feeling like you couldn't get your head above the waves and also mentioned a back inflate BCD. If you are not used to these they can shift you forward. You need to position yourself a bit more than 90degrees to the surface to shift your weight back onto the bladder to avoid this. Easy to do and if you are used to the BCD you do it naturally. back to familiarity with the gear.

I know some mention the camera contributing to task loading. I am going to say something a little controversial here. I started using a simple point and shoot camera early on. I honestly feel it helped me relax more diving. It took my focus off stressing about exactly how I was breathing and bouyancy etc and let it come more naturally.

And be aware that the more you pump up a back inflated BCD or wing the more it tilts you forward, if its fairly full you need to lay back into it or let a little air out.

 

[Redshift]

That twist in the belt is not 90 degrees, it's 180... It will keep the weights in the same place, but not prevent the belt from completely rotating.
For that, what you can do is, spread the weights around you evenly so that the belt doesn't experience any forces that cause it to rotate and tighten it well.
Careful that a rubber belt will be harder to undo and drop in an emergency situation.

---------- Post added March 2nd, 2014 at 08:10 AM ----------

I know some mention the camera contributing to task loading. I am going to say something a little controversial here. I started using a simple point and shoot camera early on. I honestly feel it helped me relax more diving. It took my focus off stressing about exactly how I was breathing and bouyancy etc and let it come more naturally.

And do you know if it also didn't take your focus away from your buddy, the group, the reef, your position, etc? Because in the beginning, that's where the focus should be (not that it should disappear later!) and having the camera often translates into paying attention to something secondary (taking photos) and not enough to what's really important. Furthermore it can be something worry about in an emergency, not wanting to let go of an expensive item, having to clip it, not wanting to have it dangling and banging...

And be aware that the more you pump up a back inflated BCD or wing the more it tilts you forward, if its fairly full you need to lay back into it or let a little air out.

Although "normal" BCDs often restrict breathing and do not inflate to full capacity when properly tightened. If they are let a bit more loose, they can inflate more without squeezing the person as much, but during normal usage they may move more from side to side.

 

[Mike.D]

That twist in the belt is not 90 degrees, it's 180... It will keep the weights in the same place, but not prevent the belt from completely rotating.
For that, what you can do is, spread the weights around you evenly so that the belt doesn't experience any forces that cause it to rotate and tighten it well.
Careful that a rubber belt will be harder to undo and drop in an emergency situation.

---------- Post added March 2nd, 2014 at 08:10 AM ----------



And do you know if it also didn't take your focus away from your buddy, the group, the reef, your position, etc? Because in the beginning, that's where the focus should be (not that it should disappear later!) and having the camera often translates into paying attention to something secondary (taking photos) and not enough to what's really important. Furthermore it can be something worry about in an emergency, not wanting to let go of an expensive item, having to clip it, not wanting to have it dangling and banging...



Although "normal" BCDs often restrict breathing and do not inflate to full capacity when properly tightened. If they are let a bit more loose, they can inflate more without squeezing the person as much, but during normal usage they may move more from side to side.

How is a rubber belt harder to undo? Unless your talking about a standard spearfishing rubber weight belt.

My buddy has a rubber weight belt with a stainless buckle, the same buckle on a normal webbing weight belt. I don't think he has any difficulties doffing it.


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[bowlofpetunias]

And do you know if it also didn't take your focus away from your buddy, the group, the reef, your position, etc? Because in the beginning, that's where the focus should be (not that it should disappear later!)

:doh: how did I know that assumption would appear? Believe me I was and am a sticker for buddy procedures. I admit in the beginning it was more paranoia due to lack of confidence in my ability to be self sufficient. I was lucky enough to start diving with a very experienced and competent buddy. The said buddy would rip a strip off me for silting or damaging anything!

and having the camera often translates into paying attention to something secondary (taking photos) and not enough to what's really important. Furthermore it can be something worry about in an emergency, not wanting to let go of an expensive item, having to clip it, not wanting to have it dangling and banging...

Which is why I have never invested in an expensive camera and had it tied off anyway. I agree that these are all reasonable concerns that must be addressed. There are however exceptions too....

The functions of Regs, BCD's, the fit and selection should be made after appropriate research and if possible trying the equipment. Getting "the luck of the draw" of the rental gear at the destination dive operation IMHO is more of an issue than the fact that the OP was using a camera.

 

[Redshift]

How is a rubber belt harder to undo? Unless your talking about a standard spearfishing rubber weight belt.

My buddy has a rubber weight belt with a stainless buckle, the same buckle on a normal webbing weight belt. I don't think he has any difficulties doffing it.

Yes, that was what I was talking about because that's what had been suggested and what was in the image, a spearfishing rubber belt.
Indeed, you are right, a rubber belt with a traditional scuba buckle works.

:doh: how did I know that assumption would appear? Believe me I was and am a sticker for buddy procedures. I admit in the beginning it was more paranoia due to lack of confidence in my ability to be self sufficient. I was lucky enough to start diving with a very experienced and competent buddy. The said buddy would rip a strip off me for silting or damaging anything!


Which is why I have never invested in an expensive camera and had it tied off anyway. I agree that these are all reasonable concerns that must be addressed. There are however exceptions too....

The functions of Regs, BCD's, the fit and selection should be made after appropriate research and if possible trying the equipment. Getting "the luck of the draw" of the rental gear at the destination dive operation IMHO is more of an issue than the fact that the OP was using a camera.

But you see, that was a very specific case. And are inexperienced divers always diving with such a buddy? They are not.
And we see people going for the expensive things from the start...
I replied to your post, but with general concerns, of course there are always exceptions. Although oftentimes people think they are the exception and they are not (again, comment not towards you).

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I agree with what you are saying to a very large degree. I think the best place to spend the money in the beginning is the stuff that matters ie Regs, BCD, mask etc.

 

[gcarter]

On occasion, you WILL get pushback from dive operators for taking the time to do a pre-dive check. We had an INSTRUCTOR on a boat in the South Pacific start to make sarcastic fun of me and my husband for doing ours . . . Peter went down his throat. Of course, if the dive requires precise timing for the drop, you need to make sure you start getting ready early enough to get the checks done so that you don't delay the boat. But NO ONE should ever try to stop you from doing a thorough pre-dive check. It doesn't actually take very long. This is how I do it:

Goals -- where are we going, and what do we hope to do? This could include such simple things as "we're going to drift this reef until we hit minimum gas", or something as complex as, "We're going to go down on the stern of the wreck, swim along the starboard deck, take some photographs in the wheelhouse, and come back to the anchor line."
Team -- who's my buddy? Who's leading? If we are following a guide, he is effectively team leader, but that doesn't mean the buddy pair doesn't make an effort to stay together.
Equipment -- is anything special needed for the dive? For boat diving, I always have a surface marker buoy and spool, and a noisemaker of some sort. Different dives require different things; if someone has a camera, that should be mentioned, because it changes the way they dive.
Exposure -- how deep do we plan to go? How long do we expect to dive? If you know that you go through gas quickly, this is the place to mention that.
Deco -- this is ascent strategy. The DMs in the Philippines were clear about doing 3 minute stops at 15 feet. Whatever you do, you and your buddy should agree on it.
Gas -- How much do we have, and of what? This is where you should know what size tank you are diving, and whether that tank is full.
Environment -- do we expect current? Is the bottom silty? Are there overheads (swimthroughs)? Is the visibility limited? Anything environmental that affects or could affect the dive is discussed here.

Then we quickly go over our gear, head to toe -- hood, mask, primary reg, backup reg, inflator/BC dump valves, dry suit inflator and dump, gauges, weights, pocket contents (or auxiliary gear, if you aren't using pockets), fins.

It sounds horrible, but it takes about 2 minutes, once you have memorized the drill. Many easily solvable problems are encountered and fixed on the boat doing this. Checking both regs will identify having your gas turned off . . . checking your dump valves makes sure you know where all of them are, particularly important if you are using the resort's equipment.

Everybody who dives with me knows I am really a PITA about this. The whole check gets done, even if our max depth is planned at 20 feet. Things really are much easier to deal with if you do it BEFORE you're underwater.

I generally ignore such BS from warm water wussie DMs (never encountered it on a cold water dive). I was once ridiculed by one such as being a Christmas Tree diver. Clipped to my BCD were 1) a dive knife 2) a line cutter 3) a light clipped to my right upper D ring and 4) a DSMB/spool clipped to my left hip D ring (boat dive).

As you may imagine, my self esteem as a diver was severely damaged.

My gear is my gear, I make no apologies for it, and if they don't like how I am configured or how I setup / pre-dive check, that is their problem. I certainly don't lose sleep over it. And I agree, it takes 2 min or less, so any time complaints go into the round file.

 

[Peter69_56]

I generally ignore such BS from warm water wussie DMs (never encountered it on a cold water dive). I was once ridiculed by one such as being a Christmas Tree diver. Clipped to my BCD were 1) a dive knife 2) a line cutter 3) a light clipped to my right upper D ring and 4) a DSMB/spool clipped to my left hip D ring (boat dive).

As you may imagine, my self esteem as a diver was severely damaged.

My gear is my gear, I make no apologies for it, and if they don't like how I am configured or how I setup / pre-dive check, that is their problem. I certainly don't lose sleep over it. And I agree, it takes 2 min or less, so any time complaints go into the round file.

And when one is hooked up in a fishing net, one wishes that they had the line cutter or the dive knife that they saw attached to your BCD. Or when they are drifting away in the storm and realise the dive boat doesn't know where they are, they wish they had the PLB clipped to my waist. Know where you are coming from.