Divers Down watch out!

[ScubaRafiki]

Hello all - apologies to those of you who are regulars here - I am a scubaboard virgin, but reading this thread actually prompted me to sign up.

I work on Grand Cayman as a boat captain and know most of the small operators. The original post on this thread sounds more like the day started off badly - ok, the battery on the boat had to be changed, big deal at least he still got to go out on a trip! But this person seems to have got so wound up about being late that he's trying to pick holes in everything that the boat captain did.

The way things generally work here is as follows:

1) Sign up for a dive trip - most are 2 tank trips and you will be asked at this point if you want a deep/shallow or a double shallow dive - if your group is not comfortable going deep then I recommend the double shallow!!! You know the people you are signing up as they were your family and friends so don't sign them up for a deep dive if they are new to diving.

2) Go to the dive site, all of them on the west side of Grand Cayman are a 5 to 10 minute boat ride away (so you probably weren't taken to the nearest one!).

3) Listen to your brief - the key points here are your depth, time, dive site and funnily enough, how to tell your divemaster how much air you have left (here generally most divemasters will ask you to tell them when you reach 1500psi - therefore it is always a good idea to listen at this point. Since the deep dive is always guided by a divemaster you have someone in water to help out should any problems occur.

4) Enter the water - most operations get all the divers to remain at the surface until all the divers are in. The divemaster will wait on the boat and tell you all to descend together (using the mooring line helps too reduce your air consumption at this point). By staying on the boat until it is obvious that everyone is ok descending the divemaster can be there on the occasions when people don't have enough weight or help if someone decides to get out - but if all is ok they will jump in as soon as they can. During descent they can help with any people who have equalizing issues - especially those who have been abandoned by their buddies. That part of your message didn't make sense:

"WE ALL WENT DOWN AND WAITED FOREVER FOR HER TO GET DOWN THERE USING UP VALUABLE AIR. WHEN SHE GOT DOWN SHE NEVER CHECKED ON US BUT JUST TOOK OFF. I COULD NOT FIND MY BUDDY AND WAS TRYING YO GET HER ATTENTION. FINALLY GOT HER ATTENTION AND JENNY HAD TAKEN HER BACK TO THE SURFACE DUE TO A CLEARING PROBLEM."

It sounds like the reason it took Jenny so long to come down and join the group was because she was helping your 'buddy' to descend, your buddy was unable so Jenny helped her back on to the boat then jumped in. BTW if you were waiting at the mooring line you would have probably been at about 50ft, visibility here is normally 100ft plus. You "waited forever", yet all the time you were waiting you failed to notice your buddy was not with you - nice team work mate! All you had to do was look up and if you were waiting at the bottom of the mooring line (a commonly used starting point) I am sure you would not have had any problem in recognising Jenny helping your buddy (if I have interpreted this confusing statement correctly).

5) Enjoy your dive - most deep dives here are 100ft for 20 minutes done as a multi-level, if you have a computer then you get 30 minutes- if she did take off as speed, I would imagine it was because she was aware that you had been waiting for her (whilst she assisted a member of your family with a problem) and wanted you to see the wall to give you a better dive experience - but having said that, the chances are she was probably swimming at a slow pace (most divemasters here do as it helps to conserve the guests air and they get more enjoyment out of a slower paced dive) in which case I would suggest that you may be a little on the unfit side and should perhaps get medical clearance before your next dive trip. A good tip is to check your air gauge during the dive - the needle, which starts off at 3000psi actually moves as you breath so you can see how much air you have left!! :shocked2:

The other point to consider is why would she want you to have a bad dive? The pay on Grand Cayman compared to the cost of living makes it very difficult to live here - the plus side for you is that your divemaster will want you to have a better dive so that they will possibly get a tip from you for showing them a great time - think about it! (I'm not saying that divemaster's here are tip hungry, if we wanted tons of money we would not be working in this industry - when someone gives me a tip it tells me that I did a good job and I have more fun when my guests are having fun!)

Anyway, I hope I don't turn into a hit and run poster! Sorry it's a bit of a long one! I hope I haven't offended anyone with my smattering of sarcasm!

 

[divesergeant]

Having dived on GCM many times, I read, and re-read the original post.

I agree that the dives didn't go as the poster had planned, but in the islands, many things don't! Ya gotta chill and go with the flow. Unfortunately, the cruise ship experience often doesn't allow a person to settle into island time. Some regular cruisees can do it, as the one poster here demonstrates, but it is hard.

All in all, it sounds like a comedy of errors; yes the dive op should have had the right equipment (I assume they got an accurate report on the sizes needed, we all know nobody fudges height and weight info) but the divers seem to have not followed safety protocols. Running out of air and not knowing that your buddy was having trouble descending and taking off on the dive without knowing where the buddy was is unbelievable. The OP should have monitored the buddy during the descent, and not having done that, should have done anything needed to alert the dive master.

To condemn a dive op and a dive master for this one isolated instance is shameful. This is one of those occasions where if you don't read the internet you are uninformed, if you do, you are misinformed!

The post did ignite quite a response, and I'm pleased to see the over-whelming support for the dive master. Almost makes me want to dive with Divers Down on my pending Cayman trip!

DS

 

[diskin1234]

Did all 8 of you know each other already?
This was your request. She complied. What is the problem?? She could have taken you to the farthest one away so you could not dive at all.

True but we wanted a GOOD wall dive. A concrete wall would have been better.


So why were you hiding this information? Most people are open about this when they book the trip so they are sure the site is suitable. Perhaps you were and she was not told...bottom line is, TELL HER. Do not wait until after to complain. Tell her before you splash.

We didn't hide anything. We disclosed our level and experience and that was the end of it.


This in and of itself means nothing. If she gives you all the necessary information and it takes a short period of time, then fine. If she missed important protocols etc. and site conditions then perhaps there is a problem.

Being a new diver I did not know what to expect. You tell me... what information should a good dive brief contain. We were only told how deep the dive would be and how long.


First of all, was there a surface current that forced you guys to the bottom when she was on the surface? With no current, you might have been able to sit on the surface around the boat so you all descended together.

We were told to desend and wait for her.


WHOA!!! This is your fault and not hers. How did you lose your buddy? If she had to take YOUR buddy up to the surface because of clearing issues, it means that 1. You were not watcher her when you should have been descending together and 2. you were so far away from her that your buddy had to go to someone else when she had a problem. Bad buddy skills so please work on those.

We were all at the bottom of the buoy line and a member of our party had an equipment problem. After assisting, I turned to find my buddy and the dive master was coming down and going over the wall. I really think she should have told me she took my buddy to the surface before taking off.


What happened throughout the dive? Did you not check your air once? How was it a surprise when you hit almost ZERO and you still had to ascend? Again, not her fault...yours.

I checked at the bottom and when the "buddy situation" was cleared up before we went down over the wall I checked again. Being a new diver and not really knowing how I used air and the fact it was a 20 minute dive I thought I was OK. But diving at 115ft and swimming hard to try to keep up with DM it was not. Yes I should have been checking more often and will in future dives. Learned that lesson.



Sometimes that happens. Sometimes I enjoy just diving where you can hardly make out the bottom or the surface....but not always. Sometimes I will float 6" or 8" OFF the bottom and just stare at a rock or a piece of coral or a zebra mussel and I can do this for seconds, minutes or hours.....it is so relaxing.


I can agree with most of this but you need to learn how to take care of yourself so you do not have to rely on the DM. I do agree that they should bear some responsibility (HUGE debates on this) but ultimately, the buck stops with you my friend.

I hope the rest of your cruise was enjoyable.

The rest of the cruise was great. Went diving in Cozumel the next day and had a great DM and a great time. Thanks

 

[diskin1234]

Why do I think we will never hear from diskin again? He came on, whined to try and bad mouth an op that to me had a couple issues, but nothing like his own incompetence and that of the other people in his group. I do hope we hear from the operator and then close this thread. I'm getting really tired of people blaming dive ops, DMs, Instructors, God,etc for their own lack of basic skills.

Responding to JimLap

I'm new to diving and simply telling what happened to me. I know I made mistakes but after talking to many other divers and other DM's about my experiences most all agree she was not very good. If this information helps someone have a safer more enjoyable dive than that's a good thing.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

this was not information. This was a bashing of an op for what turned out to be from all accounts a rare occurence. First of all why was your first post something like this. ALso being new to diving you all missed some things in your training. Why did you even make the dive when your buddy did not? It was really not the DM's job to help her it was yours.

And if you all were burning up air why did you not ascend to a shallower depth to conserve it? As a certified diver you are under no obligation to dive any plan other than your own. When the DM "took off" none of you were obligated to follow her at that pace. You simply follow at your own pace and let her adjust to that. A DM is a guide only, not a babysitter nor is the DM the dive planner. You and your buddy are. Before you do anymore trust me dives get some experience so that you do not have to rely on a DM should things go a little haywire. And take the time to talk to the DM after the dives before coming on here and possibly ruining someone's livelihood.

 

[diskin1234]

this was not information. This was a bashing of an op for what turned out to be from all accounts a rare occurence. First of all why was your first post something like this. ALso being new to diving you all missed some things in your training. Why did you even make the dive when your buddy did not? It was really not the DM's job to help her it was yours. (See my previous reply)

And if you all were burning up air why did you not ascend to a shallower depth to conserve it? As a certified diver you are under no obligation to dive any plan other than your own. When the DM "took off" none of you were obligated to follow her at that pace. You simply follow at your own pace and let her adjust to that. A DM is a guide only, not a babysitter nor is the DM the dive planner. You and your buddy are. Before you do anymore trust me dives get some experience so that you do not have to rely on a DM should things go a little haywire. And take the time to talk to the DM after the dives before coming on here and possibly ruining someone's livelihood.

So what your saying is if you have a bad experience when you hire someone to take you on a dive you should not share that information? Even if you think the DM or operator is unsafe, because they've got to make a buck??? Ever heard of HealthGrades?

How do you know if it's a rare occurrence or not? Speaking of bashing what are you doing?

To you Jim apparently a safe professional OP or DM is one that doesn't give thorough dive brief, doesn't ask how long you've been diving, or what your comfort or experience level is. Doesn't check if everyone is teamed up. Doesn't stay close to you and periodically stops to make sure everyone is together and OK. Doesn't ever do an air check during a dive. Doesn't provide a new diver with additional guidance as an experienced (DM).

And according to you Jim if your doing one of your first 4 dives ever, in a place you've never dived before and you don't like what the DM has planned, than you and your buddy should just take off and go dive your own plan! Or if your DM takes off and gets so far ahead you can hardly see them, don't try to keep up, just go do your own thing.

Yep your right Jim...that's just the kind of DM I'm looking for.

Anyway I'm done with it! This operator's other DM's are probably great, but I want someone who does the things mentioned above, and most good DM's do these things according to experienced divers. If that's considered babysiting than that's what me and my wife need until we get more experience. The earlier problem's with the equipment and the boat I can understand. Safety must come first though. I've admitted my mistakes and have learned from them. This post was really intended to help divers using the boards to research shops and DM's in Grand Cayman. I thought the scubaboard was a place to learn and share information and experiences, I guess I was wrong.

 

[Web Monkey]

To you Jim apparently a safe professional OP or DM is one that doesn't give thorough dive brief, doesn't ask how long you've been diving, or what your comfort or experience level is.

They didn't have to ask. They looked at your C-Card and logbook.

Doesn't check if everyone is teamed up. Doesn't stay close to you and periodically stops to make sure everyone is together and OK. Doesn't ever do an air check during a dive.

Although some DM's say they do these things some imply it and some actually do it, it's really the diver's responsibility.

And according to you Jim if your doing one of your first 4 dives ever, in a place you've never dived before and you don't like what the DM has planned, than you and your buddy should just take off and go dive your own plan! Or if your DM takes off and gets so far ahead you can hardly see them, don't try to keep up, just go do your own thing. Anyway I'm done with it! This operator's other DM's are probably great, but I want someone who does the things mentioned above, and most good DM's do these things according to experienced divers. If that's considered babysiting than that's what me and my wife need until we get more experience.

In order to get this, you'll need to hire a private DM just for you and your buddy, however I do feel the need to mention that even if you do this, you may not actually get the safe dive you expect. SCUBABoard is full of examples where DMs have lead divers into potentially dangerous situations.

Although complaining makes people feel better, you should really take this a "learning experience" and a free "head's up" that you need to be able to safely plan and execute your own dives regardless of the presence of a DM.

Just for an example, I was diving a couple of years ago with two friends (one a newly certified diver). We rented an entire boat and DM just for us.

The DM gave a spectacular briefing and said that he wanted us to signal at 1/2 a tank, then at 800PSI, then he would shoot a lift bag and we would ascend up the line and the boat would pick us up.

Everything was great. We signaled 1/2 a tank, and he said "OK". My buddy signalled "800PSI" (actually I signaled for him because he was being inattentive, but that's a different story) the DM said "OK". Nothing happened. No lift bag no ascent, nothing. I banged on my tank and signaled 700PSI. "OK". 600PSI "OK".

My buddy hits 500PSI and we're still at something like 80'. I banged on my tank, flipped off DM and started our ascent. I still had a bunch of air left, so an air share would have been possible, but this was an extremely experienced DM with three divers, who for whatever reason was having a brain-fart.

Trusting the DM would have resulted in the new diver being Out of Air at 80'.

This isn't a fluke. I dive with new divers all over the Caribbean every winter on a cruise, and there hasn't been a single year when a new diver hasn't had some sort of unpleasant event on a "guided" dive where they thought the DM was "looking out for them".

This isn't to say that all DMs are useless, but that in the end, safe diving requires that you be able to plan and execute your own dive within your own safe parameters, regardless of what you think you paid for or who you think is looking out for you. If you can't end the dive safely on your own at any time, it's a "trust me" dive and you're literally trusting your life to a complete stranger who could easily be 500' away and not even aware of your existence.

As you dive more, you'll find that the most valuable dives are where someone screws up and you live to talk about it, and that aside from your OW instructor before certification, nobody is really responsible for you, except you.

Terry

 

[skynscuba]

And according to you Jim if your doing one of your first 4 dives ever, in a place you've never dived before and you don't like what the DM has planned, than you and your buddy should just take off and go dive your own plan!

I don't understand this one. Are you a certified diver? If so, what do you mean about 4 dives?

One thing I take away from this, is that maybe it is a bad idea for very low-timers to do this sort of diving, with a different operation to deal with each day, no time to learn the setup or plan. Better to spend a week at a dive resort, maybe start off with a course or just pay an instructor for a coached dive or two, or at least go with experienced friends who can be of help.

 

[Web Monkey]

I don't understand this one. Are you a certified diver? If so, what do you mean about 4 dives?

One thing I take away from this, is that maybe it is a bad idea for very low-timers to do this sort of diving, with a different operation to deal with each day, no time to learn the setup or plan. Better to spend a week at a dive resort, maybe start off with a course or just pay an instructor for a coached dive or two, or at least go with experienced friends who can be of help.

This is actually an industry problem. New divers are certified to be able to dive without supervision in conditions similar to their certification, when diving with a similarly skilled buddy. However given the length of most OW classes (generally a weekend), this is mostly a fantasy.

What brand-new divers really need is an extra dozen dives with a good instructor. This, however isn't going to happen any time soon, since OW classes are marketed the same as Take Out Pizza. The fastest and cheapest gets the most business.

Terry

 

[Jim Lapenta]

They didn't have to ask. They looked at your C-Card and logbook.


Although some DM's say they do these things some imply it and some actually do it, it's really the diver's responsibility.

In order to get this, you'll need to hire a private DM just for you and your buddy, however I do feel the need to mention that even if you do this, you may not actually get the safe dive you expect. SCUBABoard is full of examples where DMs have lead divers into potentially dangerous situations.

Although complaining makes people feel better, you should really take this a "learning experience" and a free "head's up" that you need to be able to safely plan and execute your own dives regardless of the presence of a DM.

Just for an example, I was diving a couple of years ago with two friends (one a newly certified diver). We rented an entire boat and DM just for us.

The DM gave a spectacular briefing and said that he wanted us to signal at 1/2 a tank, then at 800PSI, then he would shoot a lift bag and we would ascend up the line and the boat would pick us up.

Everything was great. We signaled 1/2 a tank, and he said "OK". My buddy signalled "800PSI" (actually I signaled for him because he was being inattentive, but that's a different story) the DM said "OK". Nothing happened. No lift bag no ascent, nothing. I banged on my tank and signaled 700PSI. "OK". 600PSI "OK".

My buddy hits 500PSI and we're still at something like 80'. I banged on my tank, flipped off DM and started our ascent. I still had a bunch of air left, so an air share would have been possible, but this was an extremely experienced DM with three divers, who for whatever reason was having a brain-fart.

Trusting the DM would have resulted in the new diver being Out of Air at 80'.

This isn't a fluke. I dive with new divers all over the Caribbean every winter on a cruise, and there hasn't been a single year when a new diver hasn't had some sort of unpleasant event on a "guided" dive where they thought the DM was "looking out for them".

This isn't to say that all DMs are useless, but that in the end, safe diving requires that you be able to plan and execute your own dive within your own safe parameters, regardless of what you think you paid for or who you think is looking out for you. If you can't end the dive safely on your own at any time, it's a "trust me" dive and you're literally trusting your life to a complete stranger who could easily be 500' away and not even aware of your existence.

As you dive more, you'll find that the most valuable dives are where someone screws up and you live to talk about it, and that aside from your OW instructor before certification, nobody is really responsible for you, except you.

Terry

Said with perhaps more tact than I did but essentially the same. My personal opinion is that if you don't feel you can do the dive without the DM then you should not be doing it at all. DM's can also have major problems, have a heart attack, brain fart, or bad day. It is the responsibility of the divers to be sure that should this happen it does not have an adverse effect on their safety. But as was said with alot of ow courses all you get is someone who knows just enough to get themselves into more trouble.