Diver Training: Kick-up the intensity, or not?

[Bubblehead628]

DCBC,

The course you describe is very similar to the NAUI OW I took in 1976, including a chamber ride. I was 16 at the time and loved it. We did our OW dives in Lake Tahoe and Monterey Bay. The chamber ride was courtesy of UC Davis which had a connection to the dive shop, BTW I remember the course cost me a whopping $35.00. I am always thankful that my OW was intense, because when I went to Scuba School in Panama City (I was a ship’s diver – submarines), it was basically an extension of my NAUI OW course. However, if I were starting out now; although I think that I would be up to the challenge, I would hesitate taking the course.

At the tender age of 53 I decided I want to enter a triathlon and am training with a group from the local “Y”. Seven weeks ago I swam 100 meters in the pool and was tired out. I swam the rest of the 500 meters 50 meters at a time with rest periods in between. Now my swimming has improved, thanks to coaching and training, to where I can swim 800 meters non-stop. The swim portion of the triathlon I’m doing in June is at the beach. So yesterday our triathlon training group went to practice our swims at Daytona Beach. It was like a washing machine, we were only swimming 400 meters and I was getting my butt kicked, that was what I call a WTF moment. I can appreciate how a 1000 meter swim in the ocean can put off many folks who would be thinking about diving. Knowing myself I probably would take your course, because I’m not right in the head.

 

[DCBC]

Perhaps its an oversimplification, but I see two types of divers out there. There's the vacation divers who will always be shuttled around by a DM in clear water and perfect conditions and there's the divers who want to dive every weekend because they love diving (who live in places where there is no DM to shuttle them around and often can't see past the end of their arm). Your course seems appropriate for the latter. I'd love to have had that type of rigor given the diving environment we have here...

I agree with you and have felt the same way. The first example you mentioned use to be called a resort course and was designed for 'supervised diving' in a similar manner you've described. Somehow the courses have been changed to certify these people for unsupervised diving, something that I've never figured-out...

---------- Post added May 14th, 2013 at 01:08 PM ----------

DCBC,

The course you describe is very similar to the NAUI OW I took in 1976, including a chamber ride. I was 16 at the time and loved it. We did our OW dives in Lake Tahoe and Monterey Bay. The chamber ride was courtesy of UC Davis which had a connection to the dive shop, BTW I remember the course cost me a whopping $35.00. I am always thankful that my OW was intense, because when I went to Scuba School in Panama City (I was a ship’s diver – submarines), it was basically an extension of my NAUI OW course. However, if I were starting out now; although I think that I would be up to the challenge, I would hesitate taking the course.

It amazed me how many people today somehow think that a course like this somehow relates to SEAL training? As I mentioned, I was a Navy Diver and completed BUD/S. This course is nowhere near a 'military type training program',' let alone one like BUD/S.

People are sometimes amazed to hear that all SCUBA training courses use to be much like this (like your program you took in 1976). It's just that today, things are different. The definition of what a diver had to accomplish before certification has changed.

I'm not here to criticize the training anyone gives or receives, but to ask the question and give an option. Some like it, others don't. Some are offended by actually having to do more, while others are offended with a text designed at the Grade 8 level. You can't keep everyone happy, but I think it's good to have a choice...

---------- Post added May 14th, 2013 at 01:29 PM ----------

Sorry dude. Too old for the Seal regime. ... I'm now 67. However I am both proficient and safe. I wonder if the intensity is more for your ego than you think.

I don't recall anyone saying that you weren't proficient or safe as a diver. I don't know you, the training you've undertaken, or the particular underwater environment you dive in .

As far as the rest, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm 60 and have taught my children the same way that I was taught as a child. One thing, was not to make outlandish comments about other people's motivations, whom I didn't know. I suppose however, that civility isn't related to age...

 

[SubZeroScuba]

Couple of questions:

Does this OW give the same limitations as the PADI OW? If you were able to get it similar to AOW, I think you would be able to compete with the other agencies.

The 1000 yard ocean swim is hard. Are you seriously doing this mid-winter? I remember the 250 yard swim wearing full uniforms(yes, included beret) mid-winter. I could barely move afterwards. There was ice on the water, so I guess it was slightly colder, but still. That was Navy Diving School.

But I do really like the program you have. A lot of people seems to think that as long as you can do something under idle, you can do it. Experience, preparedness and confidence is lacking in new OWs today. I think a lot of what you are doing should be the standard rather than the additional good-to-know.

 

[TSandM]

I'm quite sure that a 1000 yard swim in 4 - 5 foot swells would be something I could only manage in an emergency, with the help of the adrenaline I'd have in that situation.

Instead of working to become strong and fit enough to do that, I prefer to develop good common sense, that doesn't dive in 4 - 5 foot swells, in conditions where I'm likely to be blown away from the structure or the boat.

 

[DCBC]

Couple of questions: Does this OW give the same limitations as the PADI OW? If you were able to get it similar to AOW, I think you would be able to compete with the other agencies. The 1000 yard ocean swim is hard. Are you seriously doing this mid-winter? I remember the 250 yard swim wearing full uniforms(yes, included beret) mid-winter. I could barely move afterwards. There was ice on the water, so I guess it was slightly colder, but still. That was Navy Diving School.

Upon successful program completion the Diver is certified at the NAUI Basic / CMAS * (One) Star Diver level. If you're looking for more advanced certifications, the advantage is that much of the 'book learning' is out of the way. It's relatively easy to take what you already know and utilize another mixed-gas (for example). The diver mainly needs to gain experience underwater (and instructional experience if their desire leans towards diving instruction). We can roll through other dives and certify Advanced, Rescue, DM, Instructor, Specialties or Technical, if that's the person's wish. Everything that's required by the certification body, is of course required. Similarly, additional training is included as warranted.

To clarify, the 1000M is a 'surface swim' with full equipment. There's no record to set and the swim is rather relaxed (slow and consistent). All divers are positively buoyant and it's planned so that it's with the current. If someone gets tired, they are pulled; the Divers work as a team. Upon completion, they are proud of their accomplishment. Near the end of the swim, we retrace our steps for about 20M to see how difficult it is to swim against the current. Again, this is a learning experience and it drives home the importance of dive planning.

But I do really like the program you have. A lot of people seems to think that as long as you can do something under idle, you can do it. Experience, preparedness and confidence is lacking in new OWs today. I think a lot of what you are doing should be the standard rather than the additional good-to-know.

I agree (at least for anyone that's certified to dive unsupervised). I think that people who want to dive on vacation with a guide, should have a different criteria, but the industry goes in a direction that can financially support it. Thanks for your comments.

 

[covediver]

Interesting thread. As you point out, many of your requirements are similar to GUE. They are also similar to the requirements that i had to do in part to get basic certification (no longer offered) and research diver certified a few years later. I learned to dive in the 1980s when there was still a strong influence of the 1950s style trainers that many allude to in this thread.

How much of your structure is driven by local conditions? Having recently read descriptions of diving in your part of Canada, I was wondering how much of your training is driven to prepare people for local conditions and the logistics of local diving (we have similar challenges in Alaska). The reason I ask, is that when I was learning to dive in California way back when we did a full gear snorkel, two beach dives, and two boat dives. It seemed appropriate given our local conditions (boat diving at the islands), beach dives with long surface swims or through thick kelp to get to the dive sites and so on. The physical was required since the basic course was offered through the university which required it and it was a condition of employment for some years after). As i recall, we had to do a 500 yard surface swim in 10 minutes or less, tread water for some amount of time while passing the brick, and swim 25 yards underwater (similar to what lifeguard candidates are required to do today). Research diver/NPS volunteer required a 1000 yard swim with mask, fin, and snorkel, 50 yards underwater on two breaths, and so on.

When the new standards came in 1987 or so, I knew a few old timers who got out because they could no longer have requirements that exceeded the standards for Openwater 1 (so they said). I think improvements in technology since then have made diving easier for many in most places, but not for all in every place.

 

[DCBC]

I'm quite sure that a 1000 yard swim in 4 - 5 foot swells would be something I could only manage in an emergency, with the help of the adrenaline I'd have in that situation. Instead of working to become strong and fit enough to do that, I prefer to develop good common sense, that doesn't dive in 4 - 5 foot swells...

Perhaps you should be thankful that you live in an area where you have the luxury of calm water. There are many places in the World where if you wouldn't dive in a 4 foot swell, you would find yourself not diving at all... I suppose that's 'good common sense' if you don't have the skills necessary to do this safely.

I do agree however, that if the training program cannot provide the diver with the skill-sets necessary to dive in the local conditions safely, they shouldn't be certifying divers at all. What's required is dependent upon the local conditions (but I've said this before haven't I?)

---------- Post added May 14th, 2013 at 03:28 PM ----------

Interesting thread. As you point out, many of your requirements are similar to GUE. They are also similar to the requirements that i had to do in part to get basic certification (no longer offered) and research diver certified a few years later. I learned to dive in the 1980s when there was still a strong influence of the 1950s style trainers that many allude to in this thread.

Yes, this is very similar to the Standards of many training agencies in the 60's, 70's and 80's.

How much of your structure is driven by local conditions? Having recently read descriptions of diving in your part of Canada, I was wondering how much of your training is driven to prepare people for local conditions and the logistics of local diving (we have similar challenges in Alaska). The reason I ask, is that when I was learning to dive in California way back when we did a full gear snorkel, two beach dives, and two boat dives. It seemed appropriate given our local conditions (boat diving at the islands), beach dives with long surface swims or through thick kelp to get to the dive sites and so on. The physical was required since the basic course was offered through the university which required it and it was a condition of employment for some years after). As i recall, we had to do a 500 yard surface swim in 10 minutes or less, tread water for some amount of time while passing the brick, and swim 25 yards underwater (similar to what lifeguard candidates are required to do today). Research diver/NPS volunteer required a 1000 yard swim with mask, fin, and snorkel, 50 yards underwater on two breaths, and so on.

I've generally taught the same program for the past 42 years. I believe this type of training is what a Diver requires to dive safely here 'unsupervised.' Obviously if I was teaching in a warm water vacation setting, I wouldn't expect tourists to take such an extensive program.

When the new standards came in 1987 or so, I knew a few old timers who got out because they could no longer have requirements that exceeded the standards for Openwater 1 (so they said). I think improvements in technology since then have made diving easier for many in most places, but not for all in every place.

I too left one particular Agency shortly after this time, because of the reasons you've mentioned. Other agencies however, do give more latitude and actually encourage them to surpass 'Minimum Standards.' I think that this has to be within reason and in the best interests of the Student (which I've addressed in-part in Post #54).

 

[SubZeroScuba]

Perhaps you should be thankful that you live in an area where you have the luxury of calm water. There are many places in the World where if you wouldn't dive in a 4 foot swell, you would find yourself not diving at all... I suppose that's 'good common sense' if you don't have the skills necessary to do this safely.

I do agree however, that if the training program cannot provide the diver with the skill-sets necessary to dive in the local conditions safely, they shouldn't be certifying divers at all. What's required is dependent upon the local conditions (but I've said this before haven't I?)

This, a million times!

As one might expect, Norway is cold, the entire country is a giant rock and there are some mean currents.

This course would actually make for a safe diver here. The ones joining our club with fresh OWD-certificates, even from Norway needs at least 10 dives with experienced and seasoned divers before we let them dive together(ie. couple who took the OWD together). We are very lucky, as we work close with all the LDS, and are one of very few who have mix-gases and good air, so most locals are at some point introduced to our club. Even the LDS who runs the OWDs tells those who live close to us to join up, as they should have more practice. That is scary to think about. PADI acutally refuses the LDS to give them the training they should have. This have to some extent been "fixed" as OWDs now can go directly do AOW(but that limits the course for those who are less inexperienced). So, those who take their OWD in Norway, are usually A-OK in a couple of months in our care.

Those who really scares me atleast, is the dreadful "I took my diving permit on vacation" There are two kinds of people who do that: 40 year-old mid-life-crisis, unable to learn any practical skill. And there is 20 year old, super-hung over all the time. Someone set up their gear, donned the rashguard for them, and wiped their noses. They have to be able to sit, stand, and fall into water. "Top button down, blue button up". Breathe if you feel like it. "Yes, you very good diver"

They are treated as non-certified in Norway.

Relevant how? Because PADI OWD is actually world-wide. Anyone who passes at Bora Bora, can go dive in Norway, or Iceland. They are in no way, able to do that. I would really like to promote your courses, have you thought about teaching others your way? I could get the word out in the Norwegian communites if you would like. I am sure you would get a lot of interest.

 

[DCBC]

This, a million times!

As one might expect, Norway is cold, the entire country is a giant rock and there are some mean currents.

This course would actually make for a safe diver here. The ones joining our club with fresh OWD-certificates, even from Norway needs at least 10 dives with experienced and seasoned divers before we let them dive together(ie. couple who took the OWD together). We are very lucky, as we work close with all the LDS, and are one of very few who have mix-gases and good air, so most locals are at some point introduced to our club. Even the LDS who runs the OWDs tells those who live close to us to join up, as they should have more practice. That is scary to think about. PADI acutally refuses the LDS to give them the training they should have. This have to some extent been "fixed" as OWDs now can go directly do AOW(but that limits the course for those who are less inexperienced). So, those who take their OWD in Norway, are usually A-OK in a couple of months in our care.

Those who really scares me atleast, is the dreadful "I took my diving permit on vacation" There are two kinds of people who do that: 40 year-old mid-life-crisis, unable to learn any practical skill. And there is 20 year old, super-hung over all the time. Someone set up their gear, donned the rashguard for them, and wiped their noses. They have to be able to sit, stand, and fall into water. "Top button down, blue button up". Breathe if you feel like it. "Yes, you very good diver"

They are treated as non-certified in Norway.

Relevant how? Because PADI OWD is actually world-wide. Anyone who passes at Bora Bora, can go dive in Norway, or Iceland. They are in no way, able to do that. I would really like to promote your courses, have you thought about teaching others your way? I could get the word out in the Norwegian communites if you would like. I am sure you would get a lot of interest.

I appreciate your comments. People who don't dive in similar conditions as ours, often are critical without having any idea of what's required. I understand the thought process, that if I don't have to, want to, or am physically unable to do so, it couldn't be required at all and is overkill. Certainly for some conditions it is, other's it's not.

I've been fortunate to dive the Saltstaumen, some WWII wrecks in Narvik and a few other sites in Norway. I was a Commercial Diving Consultant, so I've had to travel a lot in my career (a mixed blessing). You have a beautiful country and some excellent diving! Thanks again.

I know your concerns about Standards and the direction some certification agencies have taken. At this point, I'm retired so am not promoting any of my training programs. There are still some Instructors that I know that teach in a similar way as I do, but we are a dieing breed (I think I heard someone say 'Thank goodness!').


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[ScubaSteve]

Ok this thread now sounds like little more than ego boosting "my conditions are worse than yours but I am better than everybody else so it is ok".


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