Diver Training: How much is enough?

[Martigan]

Minor tangent to this thread. It was pointed out PADI had a major impact on growing the scuba industry in the U.S., but not in a number of European countries, where another agencies (e.g.: CMAS, BSAC) filled this role to some extent. PADI is credited with greater numbers of hobbyist divers and availability of more advanced gear. This raises 2 associated questions:

1.) Is the prevalence of the scuba hobby equal, greater or less in, say, France, Britain, Spain, etc...vs. in the U.S.?

2.) How centered is the dive gear industry on the U.S., in terms of company location & design? I'm not talking about the hands-on manufacturers (e.g.: Apple is a U.S. company with U.S. designing heavily relying on Chinese manufacturing, I believe), but the companies and where the advances are coming from.

In other words, are a lot of dive gear products designed in European countries by European companies, or do they mainly import stuff made via U.S. companies?

Richard.

P.S.: This is relevant to the thread because the benefits of PADI are used to justify the approach of PADI, to a point.

Response to point 1: Diving prevalence compared to the population is similar to, while not equal, in European countries. Switzerland, despite having no sea, has a high rate of divers/population ratio (but also a very high medium revenue...). Germany is above the curve, while France is a bit behind. Italy and Spain have a strong base, but suffer from poor population comapred to the opportunity to dive (sea exposure).

Response to point 2: Dive equipment industry in Europe is very strong. Aqualung is a french company, and own Apeks and other brands; Beuchat is french as well. You have also Mares and Cressi, both italian companies; Poseidon is swedish, Drager and Bauer (compressors) are german, Suunto is finnish, Uwatec is swiss (subsidiary of Scubapro).
American products are not widely used on Europe, based on two or three things:
- Strong European industry
- Distribution (and maintenance!) network not developed for many american companies
- Regulation (especially for regulators second stage pressure when inhaling and exhaling) and other requirements are different as well, so some products cannot be commercialized in EC.

 

[NAM001]

I am in love

and we dir divers get accused of being elitist . . . I can't believe i'm getting sucked into this train wreck again, but i lost it on this post. Dcbc, i am the diver you are railing against -- i had only a very peripheral interest in the sport prior to being certified. I wouldn't have sought out an instructor if it had involved going very far to find one, and i certainly wouldn't have passed a class that involved pushups in my gear, or much in the way of timed swimming or other physical training matters. I wouldn't have spent a thousand dollars on a cert class (which is why i don't try to promote the gue one). And furthermore, as a beginner diver, i was pretty hopeless -- although most of my "destruction" consisted of kicking up puget sound silt. I was easily able to stay off the coral in warm water, as i think most people ought to be at the end of a standard padi class, if it is taught properly.

I am the person you don't want diving, the person you deplore padi for attracting and training. Personally, i am grateful for padi for attracting and training me.

 

[Diver0001]

Response to point 1: Diving prevalence compared to the population is similar to, while not equal, in European countries. Switzerland, despite having no sea, has a high rate of divers/population ratio (but also a very high medium revenue...). Germany is above the curve, while France is a bit behind. Italy and Spain have a strong base, but suffer from poor population comapred to the opportunity to dive (sea exposure).

In the Netherlands, which one would expect to be a nation of divers given that water is part of the national identity and good diving spots are close at hand, the figures I've seen seem to suggest that the diving population is about 1 in 300. The number of technically trained divers in the Netherlands--and in Europe generally--however, is off the charts as compared to the American population of divers. Part of that may have to do with the proximity of outstanding (but challenging) wreck diving, part of it has to do with "bootstrapping" (ie, if everyone around you is a tek diver then you're more likely to take this step yourself) but a big part of it must have to do with the CMAS influence. CMAS traditionally sees decompression diving as a logical extension of the recreational skills model. In the PADI world the line between rec and tek diving is drawn with a thick black line and recreational divers are trained to fear getting in a deco situation.

The CMAS is not encumbered by this way of thinking and as such has contributed to Europe having a relatively large population of technically trained divers... and not just "beginning tech". CMAS has had an influence on thinking and tek diving (especially decompression diving) in Europe is more "normal" than in other places. The number of "serious" dives getting made here is higher than what I've seen in North America and of you're a tek trained diver over here you tend to use those skills as well, as opposed to being a "card holding noob". Their safety record, aside from in Belgium, also suggests that they have the ability to embed this knowledge fairly well in their students. It also means that agencies like the IANTD, TDI and GUE find an easy foothold here.

In Belgium--getting back to a previous comment--a serious effort to modernize diving out of the "macho old timers" culture is necessary. In the Netherlands alone the VAST majority of accidents and nearly all of the fatal accidents involve Belgian CMAS divers. This isn't a CMAS problem, though. I think it's a "Belgian culture" problem. IN some ways I see them as a nation of divers who are holding on to the norms and values being expressed by people like DCBC on this thread and as a result their accident rates reflect pre-1970 numbers (DCBC's "good old days"). I'm not privy to the nuances of Belgian diving but I do get the impression that they have never been able to make the paradigm shift that the rest of the world has made, and as such they suffer from what modern divers would view as unacceptable rates a of accidents.

Given the the EU has it's seat of government in Belgium, it doesn't, therefore, surprise me very much that they saw what was going on in Belgium and passed legislation to force European training agencies to converge on the (much safer) PADI model.

Response to point 2: Dive equipment industry in Europe is very strong. Aqualung is a french company,

Aqualung started life as a French company but I would list it as an American company at this point.

Beuchat is french as well.

As far as I know this is accurate but Beuchat is one of the "monkey see monkey do" companies I listed

You have also Mares and Cressi, both italian companies;

Both of which are market followers. Both of which, however, due to the Italian feeling for design, do well in the market because their stuff has a certain "bling" to it. If you want to look HOT (insofar that that's possible in diving) in a wetsuit, then you have to have a Mares or a Cressi, because looking good is important to them. Don't get me wrong, their gear is generally good to very good (Mares has, for example, produced some outstanding regulators) but both are behind the curve in terms of R&D. Mares in particular could have been a world leader but they spent a lot of money to get noose around the neck of Dacor and since the HUB, which was a 5-alarm disaster, they haven't hit the market with a single innovation worth mentioning. That said, I do believe that IF a European full spectrum company has what it takes to bootstrap itself up to Aqualung's league then it will be Mares.

Poseidon is swedish,

Dying the death of the dinosaurs. They're so far behind the curve now that the should just give up. As a niche player they do have a role to play but they are far from a mainstream player now. They were overtaken and completely out-classed by Apeks and have never recovered.

Drager and Bauer (compressors) are german, Suunto is finnish,

Definitely top-shelf companies.

Uwatec is swiss (subsidiary of Scubapro).

Uwatec is American the same way Apeks is also now American. It hasn't been swiss since cuckcoo clocks had mechanical bellows.

American products are not widely used on Europe,

wrong. The biggest and most popular manufacturers are all American companies. IN France some people may still buy Beuchat due to mis-guided patriotism but it's a "following" company that makes reasonably good gear base on American innovations. Like Mares, and Cressi they do relatively robust sales in their own market but they are far from world leaders.

based on two or three things:
- Strong European industry

The list of strong European players is limted to 2. Suunto and Mares. All other companies are local players. Some of them have strong products and some companies like the Czech 'Lola" make outstanding products that are best of breed (albeit in a niche-- in this case, lights). But in Europe we can't pretend that we're leading the scuba industry. The French may have invented scuba diving but the Americans make it into a market.

- Distribution (and maintenance!) network not developed for many american companies

In some cases this might be true but in my experience the big players like Aqualung, Scubapro etc. have at least as much penetration into the European market as the main Euro players. Companies that you *don't* want to buy over here are companies like Sherwood, Genesis, and Oceanic. These relatively big "followers" on the American market have next to zero penetration in Europe.

- Regulation (especially for regulators second stage pressure when inhaling and exhaling) and other requirements are different as well, so some products cannot be commercialized in EC.

Do you know what it takes to fail one of those tests? YOu could make a reg out of used bicycle parts and pass the test. Seriously. These regulations are biggest wast of human energy in the modern age. ONly one regulator I know of failed the test and it was a European design.

R..

---------- Post added January 18th, 2013 at 12:11 PM ----------

I am in love

Believe it.

Lynne is as charming in real life as she is online. She has stunning eyes that don't just look at you. They draw you in, clamp on and don't let you go. There is an intensity to her personality that radiates to engulf people around her. She has a certain natural ability for leadership, something her husband resists--perhaps to his credit--to the best of his ability. She (and Peter, both) are wysiwyg people. If you've followed either of them online for long and you meet them, then you'll immediately have the feeling that you've known each other forever.

And yeah... she might write a lot on scubaboard about how much she sucked at diving but I can attest to the fact that those problems are over. She keeps her knees a little lower than I expected but other than that she's the type of diver we should all aspire to be.

R..

 

[DCBC]

...DCBC, I AM the diver you are railing against ...I certainly wouldn't have passed a class that involved pushups in my gear, or much in the way of timed swimming or other physical training matters. I wouldn't have spent a thousand dollars on a cert class...

No one ever had to do push-ups in any of my recreational classes (nor any of which I've first-hand knowledge of from any Instructor). Nor would you have had to spend "a thousand dollars" to learn (my course is approx. $300 inclusive). No one ever has had to do a timed swim (unless at the DM or Instructor level). What was required in the past (even by PADI when they first started) was that the Student had to demonstrate a reasonable degree of in-water ability. I still believe that this should be the case for 'unsupervised diving,' but that's just my opinion...

---------- Post added January 18th, 2013 at 07:31 AM ----------

...Perhaps you can correct any of the facts that I have presented?

You've accused me of "PADI bashing" for years. Not once have you questioned any of the facts that I've presented. You simply call any statement of truth 'bashing.' I suppose it's much easier than trying to present an intelligent argument.

 

[Diver0001]

No one ever had to do push-ups in any of my recreational classes

Slacker! LOL

In fact, I've actually done this but for reasons you might find surprising... namely, to shorten a certain student's learning curve.

(my course is approx. $300 inclusive).

Given what I know, that means that you offer your course for under minimum wage.... in fact, about 1/2 of minimum wage.

That fact alone is encouraging. I sell my course for marginally more than break even, which is a little more than what you charge... I don't need the money but I want to do the best job I can and I take my pride in producing divers of whom I can be proud.

In my case I apply the most efficient methods I know to make sure that my students achieve their goals. Given what I know (based on your own admission) I wonder how your (seemingly antiquated) methods can achieve the same goal in the same amount of time.

No one ever has had to do a timed swim (unless at the DM or Instructor level). What was required in the past (even by PADI when they first started) was that the Student had to demonstrate a reasonable degree of in-water ability. I still believe that this should be the case for 'unsupervised diving,' but that's just my opinion...

So either you're lying about what you expect of your students or you're back-peddling in order to bring your previous statements in line with popular opinion.

I don't really care which it is and i"m personally happy that you're willing to adjust course as a result of (I assume) this discussion.

R..

 

[DCBC]

...Training was unstructured and ranged from cursory to unnecessarily difficult in part because the trainers, although some certainly had good intentions were ignorant to the applicable educational theory and had no support or training given to them about how to teach.

Perhaps you live in an area where this was the case. I however didn't. The OUC established training guidelines in Ontario in 1958 (as per my previous post). I was trained by Ben Davis NAUI 101. Ben was a Professor at the University of Toronto and I'm sure he would be surprised to hear that he was "ignorant to the applicable educational theory." So in my time at least, I don't see any validity to your statement.

...The bar for entry to the sport was lowered which created the conditions necessary for equipment manufacturers to invest in R&D so gear would become safer, so that diving would become safer.

You are correct that changes were made that were based on profit. They were not done to make diving safer, but to line their pockets. I have already in this thread, outlined some of the benefits. Are you suggesting that this is only one sided? That everything has been gained and nothing lost? Perhaps by those who have never experienced what it was. I see both sides; the positive and the negative.

In a way it's like speaking with my Grandson: Once the World had clean air to breathe and clean water in the rivers to drink. At which time my Grandson responded: But now we have a PS3. To him, he only sees the benefits... What possible downside could there be?

---------- Post added January 18th, 2013 at 08:07 AM ----------

Given what I know, that means that you offer your course for under minimum wage.... in fact, about 1/2 of minimum wage. That fact alone is encouraging. I sell my course for marginally more than break even, which is a little more than what you charge... I don't need the money but I want to do the best job I can and I take my pride in producing divers of whom I can be proud.

I teach trough a Club and volunteer my time without any personal payment. The Club charges a course fee and an annual membership fee. This includes all equipment required for training and members have free air for the duration of their membership. Club dives are usually twice a week, year round.

Given what I know (based on your own admission) I wonder how your (seemingly antiquated) methods can achieve the same goal in the same amount of time.

I was unaware that you ran a 50 hour program? Why do you call my methods antiquated? Is it antiquated to turn out a diver with good in-water ability? Be able to dive safely in rather harsh conditions? Be able to plan a dive and project gas consumption? Be able to rescue a submerged Buddy? Perhaps you might explain yourself.

DCBC "No one ever has had to do a timed swim (unless at the DM or Instructor level). What was required in the past (even by PADI when they first started) was that the Student had to demonstrate a reasonable degree of in-water ability. I still believe that this should be the case for 'unsupervised diving,' but that's just my opinion..."

Diver0001: So either you're lying about what you expect of your students or you're back-peddling in order to bring your previous statements in line with popular opinion.

I don't lie. Show me where I've ever stated that I had a timed swim for my OW class? I'm really getting tired of people saying that I said something that I didn't.

 

[Diver0001]

You are correct that changes were made that were based on profit. They were not done to make diving safer, but to line their pockets.

IN diving circles nobody's pockets are particularly deep. The goal of creating a market/industry and the goal of becoming rich are not the same but you make them synonymous. I think you're seeing what you want to see.

R..

 

[DCBC]

IN diving circles nobody's pockets are particularly deep. The goal of creating a market/industry and the goal of becoming rich are not the same but you make them synonymous. I think you're seeing what you want to see.

Actions are taken by people that believe they will be financially successful. That's the impetus behind the decision. For-profit corporations act in their own best interests and not in the best interests of others. Everyone has a tendency to see what they want; you are no exception...

 

[Diver0001]

I was unaware that you ran a 50 hour program?

Mine isn't 50 hours. They only book round about 15 hours of bottom time and they spend about another 40 or so on theory. That only makes 45 hours. The std PADI course is 31 but I choose to spend more time on it because local conditions are not ideal.

Why do you call my methods antiquated? Is it antiquated to turn out a diver with good in-water ability? Be able to dive safely in rather harsh conditions? Be able to plan a dive and project gas consumption? Be able to rescue a submerged Buddy? Perhaps you might explain yourself.

The Dutch call that a 'proefballon" (literally translated into "test balloon" . It was a bit of push back to see if your standpoint could survive a direct pulling of the carpet from underfoot. It's an age old debating technique.

I don't lie. Show me where I've ever stated that I had a times swim for my OW class? I'm really getting tired of people saying that I said something that I didn't.

If you say that you didn't say it then I believe you. What I *think* I have accumulated from all of your posts is that your swimming requirements are extreme. If you would like to clarify that stand point and you wish to now propose that they are in line with other training agencies then I'm willing to listen.

And since we've been incessantly butting horns I want to make one thing clear:

I respect you. As a man, as an instructor, as one of my elders in this sport. I *do* listen to you, although I may not always agree with you. I *do* believe that what you have to say has value (although I can't always see it) and I would love nothing more than to spend an evening or two with you in your living-room "talking shop".

That said I do also believe that age does not always equal wisdom and I hope (and wish) that you could return that respect. Progress is seldom achieved as a result of resisting change and I would love to have the chance to blow the froth off a couple with you and exchange ideas on an equal footing. I think we'd both be better off for that.

R..

 

[ScubaSteve]

Who cares if they make a profit? Why would you begrudge anybody making a living? They are not out there handing guns out to street kids and telling them to shoot the others. You are naive if you think PADI is the only one to blame here. You and I are to blame. The market is to blame. PADI did not create and imaginary need out of thin air. Look at today in every aspect and compare it to 40 years ago. We are a world that is all about "The easiest path" and "Instant Gratification". PADI did not create this. And it is only getting worse. Blame PADI all you want but your anger is slightly misplaced.