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Diver Training: How much is enough?

Discussion in 'Advanced Scuba' started by DCBC, Dec 15, 2012.

  1. MSDT476614

    MSDT476614 Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Very Far East
    And I am confusticated.
  2. Diver0001

    Diver0001 Instructor, Scuba

    And I'm out. I should have kept my mouth shut to begin with :(

    Peter Guy likes this.
  3. The Chairman

    The Chairman Chairman of the Board Staff Member

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Cave Country!
    In the end, training people how to dive is a personal choice. The methodology for any particular instructor is unique to them, some more than others. I would not teach people to dive like Wayne for the very same reasons I don't live where he does. My teaching matches how I dive: Fun, relaxed with heavy emphases on trim, neutral buoyancy and propulsion techniques. From a class and practical standpoint, I also stress the concept of diving within your limits. Gear, personal fitness, training, environmental and buddies are all a part of a diver's consideration when they are about to make a dive. Do I train my divers to dive in BC? No, I train them to call any dive that falls outside of their limits. To me, that's a far more valuable lesson than giving them the false notion that they can do ANY dive because I trained them that way. Of course, they can dive in BC if and only if they have satisfied their limits.

    So, who is the safer diver? The one who will dive anything because their instructor supposedly trained them that way or the diver who was thoroughly taught to honor their limits? I know that I will continue to teach limits including how to just say no to yourself and to friends when a dive exceeds those limits. It just makes sense.
    NAM001 likes this.
  4. DCBC

    DCBC Banned

    Good post Pete; I agree that every diver must be aware of his/her 'safety envelope.' But what makes you think that I teach my students that they can "do ANY dive?" I don't think that this is a fair comment, as I never eluded to this. What I've said, is that if local diving conditions are less than ideal, that what's required in the course training plan changes. More comprehensive training and increased watermanship ability on the part of the student is required. Clearly someone who's trained for 'ideal conditions' doesn't require the same knowledge and skill-set as someone who's diving in an environment which is 'non-ideal.' As the environment changes, so does the training. Are you saying that you disagree with this?

    It seems generally accepted that if you want to dive: a cave, ice, or a wreck, you should seek further training to do so. If you want to dive deeper, further training is required. Why are people so hesitate to accept that if a Diver is to be trained in more hazardous local conditions, that further training is also required? Why is the concept so foreign to expect all diver certification agencies to accept this truth that diving in ice cold water with tide, waves, surf, current and poor visibility is different than diving in ideal conditions?
  5. MSDT476614

    MSDT476614 Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Very Far East
    Errr, because virtually all agency videos for OW show sunny skies, warm water and 5000' viz? Sure they talk about hypothermia and wet suits, some even recommend thickness or dry suit with a temp scale to follow but not in the vids. I kinda recall some saying about picture and 1000 words ... so moving picture must be like 1000000 words? ;D
    -hh likes this.
  6. jar546

    jar546 Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: South Florida
    No one is hesitant to accept that. The issue is that it is impractical, logistically impossible and more than likely infeasible in many if not most cases.

    Most people can't afford a ticket to Perfect World so we make due with what we have.

    When I trained people up north while they were wearing a 7mil, hood, gloves and booties in cold water with extremely poor visibility it was harder, took longer and required more logistics and help. Here in S Florida, it is much easier. We have no where near the amount of mask r&r issues as we did up north. Most people we were training up there were never going to dive in those conditions ever again. Most were only going to do warm, clear water diving.

    So, you learn the basics of open water, then slowly gain experience through diving with others and further training if needed. After all, OW is basic, entry level diving that allows you the opportunity to gain experience at your own level of comfort, if you so desire that is. Since there is no governmental control or licensing, the self policing of the industry is all we have for compliance. Anyone can go online, purchase all the equipment necessary and learn how to dive by themselves and they would not be breaking the law.

    I say deal with the way things are and choose to train/instruct however you want to. No one is keeping you from starting your own certifying agency. Just don't bash the rest of us for following the established rules of the industry we work in. You don't like them? Then get involved and work towards changing them. Ideas are worth jack **** unless they are put into action. Think you have a better mousetrap? Prove it and build it.

    If you want to charge 3-4 times as much for an OW course and take 4 times as long to do it, good for you. Just don't wonder why you are having a hard time filling your class or earning a living from OW training while others have full classes more often. If you want to teach within your niche or specialty of superior instruction and certification then my hat is off to you, it's your choice. The market will always take care of itself. Would I prefer to double my class and water time and include more skills? Yes I would. Is there a market for people looking for that type of instruction? Yes there is. Is it feasible to be able to work that way and make a living solely from that. Not around these parts. Just finding an available pool deep enough is an issue.

    Just remember, there is quality in everything. I have a $9 mask that does not leak and is comfortable to dive. I also have a $100 mask that does not leak and is comfortable to dive. Just don't think one can only dive with the $100 mask.
  7. Peter Guy

    Peter Guy Divemaster

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Olympia, WA
    DCBC complained
    But in post 264 DCBC wrote
    OK, which is it?
  8. boulderjohn

    boulderjohn Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Boulder, CO
    It's called an appeal to authority. By typing in those names, he wants to impress you with the number of people who agree with him. If you were to do the same thing, he would immediately jump in and tell you it is a logical fallacy making the argument invalid.

    It is indeed a logical fallacy when it is a false appeal to authority--that is, when the authority to which an appeal has been made does not have the supposed qualifications or does not actually hold the opinion for which he or she has been cited.

    We have been given a list of names. We have been shown nothing that tells us that those people all believe that standard OW instruction should be 100 hours long and should prepare all divers to dive in the most hazardous conditions in the world, regardless of their intentions for their future diving. To make that appeal worthwhile, he would have to provide a link with each name showing that this is indeed what they believe. If not, it is just a list of names.

    I saw something in a thread recently related to the topic of filling scuba tanks beyond their rated pressures. Someone made a link to an article and summarized what it said. The article was linked several times in the thread, with all people citing it as an authority in support of that position. That is when I came to the thread the first time and read the article. It said the exact opposite of what everyone who was summarizing it said it did. Not only that, it said it emphatically. How anyone could have gotten it so wrong is beyond belief. I would like to see the actual statements of these people before accepting them as holding a specific position.
  9. Thalassamania

    Thalassamania Diving Polymath ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: On a large pile of smokin' A'a, the most isolated
    No John you're dead wrong. BTW: I all ready answered that question.

    My post:
    was in response to roterner and DCBC's exchange:
    and was actual a poke at the idea that Wayne would entertain the notion of being the "only person ..." rather than support of a 100 hour training program. Had I been attempting an, "appeal to authority," I would have used my e-mail address book to produce a list perhaps two orders of magnitude longer and in alphabetic order to boot.
    Nobody (not even me) has said that "standard OW instruction should be 100 hours long and should prepare all divers to dive in the most hazardous conditions in the world." I think what you are attempting here is usually referred to as a "straw-man fallacy.":D
  10. dumpsterDiver

    dumpsterDiver Banned

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999

    Oh i was thinking of a different Reed, from somewhere very close...

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