Diver Training: How much is enough?

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so, back to post #9 - The folks here (who are the caring dedicated ones) are going to say "we do it right"......



How do we get to the other 20%? One avoidable accident is one too many......
 
What you seem to be unable to understand Peter, is that OW Divers should be trained to dive in the 'normal local conditions.' Whether or not divers should be trained to dive here at all is another topic for discussion.

I've been mulling this over. Obviously if you're taking an OW class out to a North Atlantic coast shore dive for their check out dives, you'll give them info. to conduct the dive safely. Following up Peter Guy's input, you'll hopefully pick a time and place where conditions are suitable for them.

But not everyone intends to dive local conditions. You may personally only choose to train people for that level, but it's not clear to me all agencies should have to support that position.

Put another way - let's say that you decided that to achieve adequate competency to dive your local conditions, a PADI or SSI diver would need to complete all these courses:

1.) OW.
2.) AOW (deep, night for low viz., drift for handling current).
3.) Rescue.
4.) A Distinctive specialty focusing on tides.

Now, by your philosophy, instructors in your area could then refuse to hand out OW cards to students who met basic OW requirements for the agency (including some who just want to dive the Caribbean), and wouldn't hand out even an OW card until the student had completed the equivalent of all the above?

I'm glad you offer rigorous, comprehensive training, but requiring it across the board seems like overkill, considering the diving a lot of people do.

Richard.

---------- Post added January 4th, 2013 at 02:10 PM ----------

so, back to post #9 - The folks here (who are the caring dedicated ones) are going to say "we do it right"......



How do we get to the other 20%? One avoidable accident is one too many......

It seems that way when there's a dead body to hold the discussion over, but it reminds me of car wrecks. If you cut the speed limits in the U.S. by 25% across the board, for example, I suspect annual fatality rates would drop. But who wants to drive that slow?

Discussing the value of human life is often dicey. For example, who many people is it okay for bears to kill? None. Though fatalities are very few, as long as there are substantial bear populations, once in awhile, one will kill somebody. We could exterminate black, brown & polar bears in the U.S. and prevent some human deaths, but we don't. A rare few human lives are part of the cost of having bears.

My examples aren't great, but my point is, by practice if not admission, we accept some level of fatalities. There will always be 'even one.'

Richard.
 
But not everyone intends to dive local conditions. You may personally only choose to train people for that level, but it's not clear to me all agencies should have to support that position.

I agree that not everyone intends to dive in local conditions. These people elect to be taught elsewhere, or are up for the challenge, regardless where they will dive in the future. If however people are trained in these conditions, I feel it incumbent on the certification agency, Instructor and Club/LDS training these individuals that a reasonable Standard is met before certification. Is it not reasonable for say a PADI 5 Star Facility teaching people to dive here to set a reasonable Standard that's supported by the certification agency?

Put another way - let's say that you decided that to achieve adequate competency to dive your local conditions, a PADI or SSI diver would need to complete all these courses:

1.) OW.
2.) AOW (deep, night for low viz., drift for handling current).
3.) Rescue.
4.) A Distinctive specialty focusing on tides.

Now, by your philosophy, instructors in your area could then refuse to hand out OW cards to students who met basic OW requirements for the agency (including some who just want to dive the Caribbean), and wouldn't hand out even an OW card until the student had completed the equivalent of all the above?

That's correct. This is the policy of the World Underwater Federation (CMAS), NAUI and several other training agencies. Not to confuse matters, but I also teach Advanced, Rescue and Specialty courses that are more comprehensive than the ones you've listed. My OW course just provides the Student 'with the basics.' Obviously people that take my program want to feel competent and not just obtain a certification card. Many years ago, they use to be the same thing.

I'm glad you offer rigorous, comprehensive training, but requiring it across the board seems like overkill, considering the diving a lot of people do.

Richard, if someone came to me to learn to dive for a vacation trip to Bonaire, I'd arrange an OW referral. If you wanted a less intensive experience, I'd refer you to another Instructor. If however, you wanted to be more prepared (regardless of where you intended to dive), you may elect to take my program.

Discussing the value of human life is often dicey. ...we accept some level of fatalities. There will always be 'even one.'

Yes Society does, I don't. Perhaps you would agree if it was your name that was on the card (of a deceased diver) as the Instructor...
 
Obviously if you're taking an OW class out to a North Atlantic coast shore dive for their check out dives, you'll give them info. to conduct the dive safely.

I've been diving from the coast of BC, to Lake Malawi, and all across the world.... Ice diving in -15C in the Czech Republic, to +30C in Egypt...... from Cozumel to Puerto Escondido, from zero viz to seeing as far as your lamp will shine, from deploying line because it was an interesting thing to try to laying line to identify an unknown WWI submarine wreck full of undetonated torpedoes; from diving in currents that were unmanageable to teaching students how to do the same. From seeing squid dance in the distance to having them "kiss" my forehead and lay eggs on my mask.

Look. I don't want to suggest that Wayne doesn't know what he's doing, but dude.... seriously. to suggest that you are the ONLY person who knows how to train divers in sub-optimal conditions.... yeah... it's insulting... it's rude... it's wrong. I'm going to wager that I could produce students for your local conditions who would be like, "dude, it's not that hard".

R..
 
Yes Society does, I don't. Perhaps you would agree if it was your name that was on the card (of a deceased diver) as the Instructor...

I see your point. This issue came into focus years ago when I was told that when a large skyscraper is built, there's an estimate generated on how many deaths are apt to occur. This was many years ago; I don't know whether actuaries still do this. My initial reaction was how can you build a skyscraper if you know a few people are probably going to get killed doing it?

Well...people want skyscrapers. And jobs. To drive 70 mph on interstates (they were considering 90 somewhere awhile back). To have bears in the wild and great white sharks in the sea. And so on.

Nobody wants a dead student. I wonder whether students trained to higher standards are more comfortable with risk & apt to pursue riskier dives? I ask because years ago I read somewhere that kids who know how to swim drown about as often as kids who don't (I don't know if that's still true today). Seemed strange till I considered who'd be more likely to mess around water...

Richard.
 
For more challenging environments (cold, visibility, current) you have to reduce student:instructor ratios or have additional staff plus have an established set of criteria that you cannot violate (minimum temperature, min. visibility and max wave height/current). RSTC allows 8:1 students to instructor in open water but I have seen violations of this in Florida. My agency allows 6:1 maximum.
 
Look. I don't want to suggest that Wayne doesn't know what he's doing, but dude.... seriously. to suggest that you are the ONLY person who knows how to train divers in sub-optimal conditions.... yeah... it's insulting... it's rude... it's wrong. I'm going to wager that I could produce students for your local conditions who would be like, "dude, it's not that hard".

I don't question your 'world-wide experience.' You might however do me the courtesy of showing where I allegedly said that I'm the "ONLY person who knows how to train divers in sub-optimal conditions." Or perhaps you just enjoy running off at the mouth...
 
I don't question your 'world-wide experience.' You might however do me the courtesy of showing where I allegedly said that I'm the "ONLY person who knows how to train divers in sub-optimal conditions." Or perhaps you just enjoy running off at the mouth...
Yeah, what he said. There are at least two of us, and then we need to add: Austin, Egstrom, Stewart, McDonald, Flahan, Lang, Rioux, Somers, Taylor, Heine, Erickson, Kintzing, Duffy, Fastenau, Reed, Bell, Harper, Reed, Mitchell, and Maney ... to name a few.
 
Thal, and showing off by typing in names helps this discussion in what way?

DCBC admits that he has no studies or any other fact based reasoning for his personal opinion that one can not be trained to be a safe, basic, open water diver in local conditions in the Nova Scotia area IF one has merely "mastered" the basic skills listed within the RSTC guidelines for an entry level scuba diver. For that matter, neither have you presented any evidence that a student who has "mastered" those various basic skills would not be competent to dive in local conditions "similar or better than those in which she was trained."

Noone is saying that a new diver would be competent to dive in "the most hazardous conditions" found in Nova Scotia or hell, anywhere else. In fact, I'd wager that very few people, if in fact any, are truly competent to dive "in the most hazardous conditions" although a very few do (for money, fame or fortune). (Query, was Sheck "competent" to dive in the conditions that killed him?)

But both of you, DCBC and you Thal, have absolutely failed to present a scintilla of evidence (and yes, a lawyer word, just for the two of you since both of you seem to have a fascination with the fact that I went to law school and once practiced law) that students who have mastered the skills "in a manner expected of an open water diver" would not be competent to dive in the Nova Scotia area or outside of Port Hardy. Would the new diver be able to dive anywhere and any time? Hell no. But that is NOT the standard -- or is that the issue. That one, or both, of you think one must be able to dive in any conditions upon finishing the basic open water course.
 
Yes Society does, I don't. Perhaps you would agree if it was your name that was on the card (of a deceased diver) as the Instructor...

Amen (though I'm agnostic!) to that! This I am reminded of every single time I start a course and every single time I hand out my SSI C-cards. My name appears there.

Discussing the value of human life is often dicey. For example, who many people is it okay for bears to kill? None. Though fatalities are very few, as long as there are substantial bear populations, once in awhile, one will kill somebody. We could exterminate black, brown & polar bears in the U.S. and prevent some human deaths, but we don't. A rare few human lives are part of the cost of having bears.

Don't forget that DAN records the most number of fatalities probably linked highly to gummi bears! ;D
 
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