Diver Training: How much is enough?

[DCBC]

So the bottom line is that all those not taught by someone who has 40 years of experience and demands weeks of training cannot be safe or competant and should not be allowed to dive. All others are a detriment to the sport. Clearly trying to keep some sort of standards that do not meet with the most stringent guidlines is tantamout to condeming us to death.

I don't think that anyone has said that. It is however to understand that what needs to be taught/learned and demonstrated by the student depends upon the diving environment in-which the student is being trained. Entry level diver training may be kept to a minimum by insuring that the Diver's certification is designated as 'supervised,' as is the norm for BSAC (for example). If the diver is to plan the dive and be in a situation where s/he may be the only responder in the case of an emergency, more training may be prudent (which seems logical). In any event, the certification Agency should apply a 'reasonable Standard,' which the Student is expected to meet for certification.

---------- Post added January 2nd, 2013 at 07:03 AM ----------

I seem to recall at one time, within the past 2 years that if you entered a student's email address when you processed their PADI pic, the student received an email from PADI asking them to fill out a survey about the training received. Many of the questions were very specific to the certification standards where the students were asked if certain skills were taught by the instructor.

If you did not put in an email address for the student, (not required) they never got a survey. We know that not all students will fill it out but it was a decent way to spot check instructors. I am not aware of any other agencies that have similar QA programs.

I believe that PADI sets the QA standard; one in-which many of the other certification Agencies could learn from.

---------- Post added January 2nd, 2013 at 07:08 AM ----------

In Singapore, the title of this thread is about to be answered by the Government. Within a few days the announcement of new rules/regs will be made governing the recreational diving industry.

Unless the certifications agencies clean-up their act, it's just a matter of time before this trend continues.

 

[vladimir]

In Singapore, the title of this thread is about to be answered by the Government. Within a few days the announcement of new rules/regs will be made governing the recreational diving industry.

That's not very surprising, is it? Do you have a link to the proposed regulations? I'm curious.

My wife took open water training here (she is Singaporean) and it was a terrible experience for her. Based on her account I would say it was unsafe, though I would also concede she is not an ideal candidate for diving.

 

[The Chairman]

Hm ... "all agencies are evil, greedy and out to kill their students via bad training" I don't remember anyone except Pete saying that.

We'll let the readers decide if that's not what you've been saying or at least implying.

If you feel overwhelmed by the evidence that has been presented here,

Again, you make a fallacious assumption if only in an attempt to demean me. In fact, you've strained the gnat only to swallow the camel here. While you and Werner set out to inundate the discussion with all kinds of pseudo evidence: it simply doesn't work. The problem is one of deception that underlies each attempted deluge. Werner feigned that his work was scholarly and was about the evolution of living fossils. You, on the other hand pretend to be reasonable and without an agenda. Neither of you succeed in your subterfuge even to the point of driving people like Peter away from this thread. Sad that. Also, neither of you have presented any evidence at all. In fact, you both try to argue away the evidences that are there because they simply and elegantly refute your agendas.

As far as Werner goes, I am still pissed that he passed the book off as he did. It took a page or two before I saw through the deception, but having a relatively open mind I finished it anyway, although the last half was read with building disgust at the intellectual dishonesty. You can be sure I won't waste money or time on him anymore.

 

[MSDT476614]

That's not very surprising, is it? Do you have a link to the proposed regulations? I'm curious.

My wife took open water training here (she is Singaporean) and it was a terrible experience for her. Based on her account I would say it was unsafe, though I would also concede she is not an ideal candidate for diving.

Don't have it yet. Lots of speculation but that's not my poison. PM you when I do.

Where is 'here' that you referred to please?

Often times 'safety' is subjective - perhaps proven in no less then a dozen discussions on SB. ;D

 

[Thalassamania]

We'll let the readers decide if that's not what you've been saying or at least implying.

There you go again Pete. You make a claim that I said something and when asked to show were I said it you decide to "let the readers decide" if I said it. And you have the gall to talk about intellectual dishonesty?

Again, you make a fallacious assumption if only in an attempt to demean me.

There you go again Pete. What assumption?

In fact, you've strained the gnat only to swallow the camel here. While you and Werner set out to inundate the discussion with all kinds of pseudo evidence: it simply doesn't work.

Inundated? If you feel inundated it is not because of any torrent I've supplied. I've made a few, rather simple points and what has "inundated" you is your inability to refute them directly. But then, that's always been your style, regardless of topic.

The problem is one of deception that underlies each attempted deluge. Werner feigned that his work was scholarly and was about the evolution of living fossils. You, on the other hand pretend to be reasonable and without an agenda.

I am, perhaps, the most reasonable person you will ever come across. But I also do not suffer fools gladly, that is part and parcel of being reasonable. You show me were I am wrong, where I have miscalculated, where I have misunderstood and I change my views immediately ... that's what it means to be a scientist, that's what it means to be rational, that's what it means to be reasonable ... remember, the root of the word is REASON. Your problem here is that your views are not based in reason, if they where there'd be no argument between us.

Neither of you succeed in your subterfuge even to the point of driving people like Peter away from this thread. Sad that.
I too am sad that Peter decided to decamp, but that is his thing, not mine. I simply pointed out what I saw as the fallacy in what he had presented and, it would appear, that an effective refutation was more trouble than he had time for at the moment.

This is a discussion based largely on logical inference and deduction ... there are very few "facts" to "prove" this or that. About all there is are fatality rates rates and drop out rates. But neither of those go to the heart of the matter, which is ethical. I've said it many times, and I'll repeat it here again: my problem is not with the training programs that exist today, per se, my problem is basically two fold, firstly I feel that people are being lied to by the industry as to the risks of hyperbaric exposure and the environment itself; secondly I think that the training being offered under the cachet of "Open Water Diver" is inadequate, in most cases, to provide the foundation and an individual needs to dive with a similarly trained individual without supervision, especially in more challenging environments, such as the Canadian Maritimes and the Northern California coast.

Also, neither of you have presented any evidence at all. In fact, you both try to argue away the evidences that are there because they simply and elegantly refute your agendas.

You have shown nothing that "refutes" or that even addresses "our agenda." All you have done is cast aspersions and innuendo.

As far as Werner goes, I am still pissed that he passed the book off as he did. It took a page or two before I saw through the deception, but having a relatively open mind I finished it anyway, although the last half was read with building disgust at the intellectual dishonesty. You can be sure I won't waste money or time on him anymore.

Werner is an idiot, but then I could have told you that and saved you some cash that would have been much better spent on, "The Ancestors' Tale."

 

[vladimir]

Don't have it yet. Lots of speculation but that's not my poison. PM you when I do.

Thanks.

Where is 'here' that you referred to please?

Singapore.

 

[MSDT476614]

Thanks.

Singapore.

No worries!

Should I ask if she was in a class of 17 students in the water with 1 instructor and 2 DMs? ;D

 

[vladimir]

No worries!

Should I ask if she was in a class of 17 students in the water with 1 instructor and 2 DMs? ;D

This was a long time ago—1999, I think—with an operator who I will not name, but whose name you would recognize. She was doing check-out dive #1 at Pulau Hantu in a poorly fitted BC that floated up around her neck while her weightbelt with too much lead pinned her to the bottom. She was separated from the instructor and divemaster, and ascended on her own in a claustrophobic panic, unbeknownst to the instructor. That was the last time she breathed compressed air, though she enjoys snorkeling.

When I read debates on scuba training I am informed by my own experience—an eight-week YMCA certification that turned out competent and confident divers. I contrast that with the experience of my two wives, both of whom were terrified by their introductions to scuba diving. Two divers is not enough data to draw reliable conclusions, of course, but I can't afford any more data.

My first wife eventually got better training—a private NAUI/PADI course. I took the course with her, to make sure it was up to snuff (it was great). She became a good diver and she enjoyed the sport. My current wife was traumatized by the experience and will never dive again.

 

[MSDT476614]

This was a long time ago—1999, I think—with an operator who I will not name, but whose name you would recognize. She was doing check-out dive #1 at Pulau Hantu in a poorly fitted BC that floated up around her neck while her weightbelt with too much lead pinned her to the bottom. She was separated from the instructor and divemaster, and ascended on her own in a claustrophobic panic, unbeknownst to the instructor. That was the last time she breathed compressed air, though she enjoys snorkeling.

When I read debates on scuba training I am informed by my own experience—an eight-week YMCA certification that turned out competent and confident divers. I contrast that with the experience of my two wives, both of whom were terrified by their introductions to scuba diving. Two divers is not enough data to draw reliable conclusions, of course, but I can't afford any more data.

My first wife eventually got better training—a private NAUI/PADI course. I took the course with her, to make sure it was up to snuff (it was great). She became a good diver and she enjoyed the sport. My current wife was traumatized by the experience and will never dive again.

Sorry to hear that Vladimir! In your case, two divers unfortunately forms 100% of your opinion to which you have every right. At times, new divers don't know they do better in private instruction till they hit the water in a group class. By then, an impression is formed which is near impossible to reverse.

 

[DCBC]

...My current wife was traumatized by the experience and will never dive again.

I fear that too many people share this experience. Although it doesn't translate to statistical data (thankfully), it does cast a shadow on the way people are being trained today. Some people refuse to accept this as meaningful, but it does affect the industry and our sport.