Diver Training, Has It Really Been Watered Down???

[boulderjohn]

It is undeniable that at some point - prior to 1995, padi led the industry into modularizing Open Water into smaller chunks - with the goal being to reduce it to the smallest chunk safely possible.

Is it undeniable?

Read this History of NAUI. It talks a lot about the early history of dive training, including the roles of the Scripps Institute and Los Angeles County. It describes the way Los Angeles County created the AOW certification, with NAUI following close behind for the same reason--they thought it would help with the fact that too many divers were quitting soon after certification.

It does not provide any history of PADI introducing modularization to OW instruction. Could you provide some evidence of this? What were the modules that were created? When did this happen?

One thing it does say is that they authors, which include NAUI Instructor #1 AL Tillman, believed that at the time they wrote the history late 1990s), the average student leaving an OW class was a more skilled diver than were the instructors who first formed NAUI in 1960..

 

[sigxbill]

My mistake - I knew that and accidentally mixed up my history. Padi was not the one that modularized scuba, but that doesn’t take away from any other part of my post ...

Cheers and thanks for correction

 

[shurite7]

Shurite7, When I took the DM course in '09, owning the instructor's manual was not required. Didn't spend the money buying one and had I read through it at the shop I would not have remembered a whole lot with my memory--certainly not a definition of mastery. I'm pretty sure I knew what I needed to know to assist on courses. Maybe it's a requirement now?

It is a requirement. I remember having the standards, for both NAUI and PADI, back when I took DM in 2000. The Instructor Manual comes in the crew pack. However, you, as a DM (assuming you are renewed), can go to PADI's website and download the pdf. The same holds true with NAUI. My active DMs are required to read (more like review) through it each year to help ensure we are holding to minimum standards.

Perfect, you hit the nail on the head.

The fact is, skills are degradable. How many students go out and carry on practising their skills. Not many, not until perhaps they get further into the sport.

This is the reason, at least one of them, for promoting continuing ed courses.

 

[shurite7]

Perhaps there is dilemma that many are perplexed by and others are not. Some view standards as a platform to teach students the basics of knowledge and skills, hence mastery. After that the students are expected to go out and learn to dive by practicing their skills and gaining experience. Others want, or interpret, the standards to mean each and every student is to by fully trained as a master (meaning skills are almost perfect and can be accomplished at any time when required) before he/she can receive his/hers certification.

What I have observed and experienced in the industry (not the agencies!) is the former fits in the first group - BOW, AOW, Rescue, DM, and even PSD. The later group fits well for tech, thinking back on my basic fundamentals course for example.

 

[boulderjohn]

The fact is, skills are degradable. How many students go out and carry on practising their skills. Not many, not until perhaps they get further into the sport.

That is true of all skills of course. I once had an official ranking (A) for doubles volleyball. That was more than 30 years ago. I would not be someone you would want on your team today.

If people are active divers, they practice most of their skills by default every time they dive. Most people have to clear masks, at least a little, on every dive. Buoyancy is practiced on every dive. Ascents. Descents. Entries. Exits. Weighting. Yes, there are specific skills that are rarely practiced, but many and perhaps most skills are practiced with every dive.

 

[Clayton122]

And like many, you make this criticism in the face of the fact that the standards for OW diving have been increased in the last quarter century or more. Or do you mean "needling down" as a phrases that means "adding more content"? Or is your strategy to counter this indisputable fact with vague and unprovable statements about "agency culture"?

Given the hostile tone of your post, I am not really sure we can have an open an honest discussion about it. I am certainly open to what you have to say, but you need to drop the hostilities and apparent bias for that to occur.

 

[boulderjohn]

Given the hostile tone of your post, I am not really sure we can have an open an honest discussion about it. I am certainly open to what you have to say, but you need to drop the hostilities and apparent bias for that to occur.

I am sorry if you see it as both hostility and bias. Perhaps I can respond to both.

Hostility: I have to admit my dander does get up when I see the same things repeated over and over and over and over again. I have been a part of ScubaBoard for over 14 years now, and I am probably reacting to all 14 years when I see a post, and I sometimes overreact. For that, I apologize.

Bias: So you make a post that says the OW instruction has been steadily lowering its standards. I make a post showing that in that time period the standards have actually increased significantly. You declare an opinion without any factual basis. I provide facts that clearly contradict your statement. You say that providing those facts shows my bias.

Perhaps that bias contributes to the hostility.

 

[Diving Dubai]

If people are active divers, they practice most of their skills by default every time they dive. Most people have to clear masks, at least a little, on every dive. Buoyancy is practiced on every dive. Ascents. Descents. Entries. Exits. Weighting. Yes, there are specific skills that are rarely practiced, but many and perhaps most skills are practiced with every dive.

I'm on your side John, however. Doing skills and having the desire to do them well are hugely different.

Again I'll point to the buddy check, which is taught in detail but many decide that a cursory one (if any) is good enough. Many people can clear a mask, until they get a task load - same with buoyancy. The majority of divers don't care. They jump in, see pretty fishes and get out. Job done. But I'll bet the vast majority had to achieve a better standard under instruction than they achieve in day to day diving.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Given the hostile tone of your post, I am not really sure we can have an open an honest discussion about it. I am certainly open to what you have to say, but you need to drop the hostilities and apparent bias for that to occur.

I'm happy to discuss.

However this is a subject which I'm passionate about, so I applogise in advance in my writings come across as harsh or hostile to anyone or any group, I don't' mean them to be.

This is a horse, beaten to death and resurrected (a number of times)

In the Halcyon days through rose tinted glasses, the training was longer and more intense, there were less people involved in the sport but more annual deaths in total. So perhaps the training wasn't that effective?

Those were different times though. If you had an accident you blamed yourself not others, you may have brought fins (Jet fins) that were advertised that you could kick the @"£$ out of a reef and not damage them, it was okay to ride turtles, and Jacques Cousteau was happy to dynamite a channel through a reef for his boat.

Moving on to today.

I've certified a number of Scuba divers to Open water (Scuba diver if I remember correctly only does CW 1-3 and OW 1+2) the reason, they did in on vacation and didn't' want to waste their vacation time on additional training. They just wanted to do enough to see pretty fishes.

Go stand on a sidewalk in an area with lots of dive shops. Watch people go from shop to shop looking for the fastest and cheapest course.

Yes they are offered - you can do OW in 3 longs days if you work hard - I wouldn't' teach it.

There are written standards, and we'd all be lying if we said no one breaks them. People do for economics and because they don't' care. But how the agencies police it is something else.

Divers get a questionnaire, but once they've got their cert card, do they really care about writing a negative review (if the return it at all) unless something bad has happened. It's not human nature.

Yes I think there could be improvements. I think OW should have 6 OW dives (so 5 days min) I think there should be 20 dives or 240 mins between OW and AoW, same again for rescue

I think DM should be 40 days - not 2 weeks offered by some

Some say that the 60 dives (DM) and 100 dives (Instructor) is too small - (I had 500 and 700 respectively) However to the VAST majority of divers 50 dives can seem an unobtainable target. I make 120 fun dives a year (teaching dives are extra) so that doesn't seem a lot. Someone who saves for 2 years for a family vacation and maybe fits in 10 dives would think differently

I don't have the answers, these are just my thoughts

 

[Diving Dubai]

PPS

When I took my OW course in 2007, 50% of the 2 days of confined water were spent in the Classroom on dive theory

Now Elearning means those 2 days are 100% practical - so in effect we've gained an additional day without extending the course