Diver to attempt cross-channel (England-France) scuba dive with scooter.

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Again, the difference between 200 f/m and 250 is huge. Even 15 fpm is easily detected by divers and s often assumed to be far far greater a difference.

Tobin

I was not disagreeing with you at all. 150 to 200 is huge to me. I was just saying that in a lot of the caves down here, which Rob does a lot of diving at, we have distance markers on our lines. It does make judging our speed pretty easy.

---------- Post added ----------

OK, I just read this and actually paid some attention to the numbers. When I first saw it I thought it said 160 feet per minute. Is this cat really going to try 160 meters per minute?
 
The article says he plans to do the entire dive without surfacing, and that it will take him around 8 hours.

"...expects to complete the dive within eight hours. An additional two hours for decompression at the French coast will be needed,.."

There may well be reasons why the dive needs to be completed deeper - perhaps optimum progress at depths where surface current can be avoided etc.

Looking at the charts - it's feasible that this record attempt could be planned for a 'true' scooter/scuba crossing along the bottom, rather than shallow submerged, as the depths are ~20-40m:

1-s2.0-S0278434305001962-gr1.jpg


Looking at the chart (below), there's a bunch of cross-channel pipelines/power cables. Perhaps the plan is to track these along the bottom, to ensure navigational accuracy?

DOVER-CALAISweb.gif


Tides and current will be decisive factors (as they are with the regular cross-channel swimming attempts). For reference, the fastest verified swim of the Channel was by the Bulgarian Petar Stoychev on 24 August 2007, in 6 hours 57 minutes 50 seconds.

The English Channel is approximately 19nm/38000 yards/35 km wide. It is narrowest (18.2nm) between Shakespeare Beach (Dover) and Cap Gris Nez (South of Calais). However, accounting for tide/current, a swimmer would expect to swim about 20 nm - 37 km.

Channel tides are strong and change direction, approx every 6 hours. They flow to the NE from about 1.5 hours before high water to about 4.5 hours after high water (flood tide). Then they turn and flow SW from 4.5 hours after high water to 1.5 hours before high water (ebb tide). These tides can flow at up to 4 nautical miles per hour. The tide gets later every day by about 30 to 50 mins and change in height and flow speed every tide.

This impacts the crossing greatly, depending on whether a neap or spring tide is in action. For instance, on a 5.3 meter neap tide a swimmer (approx 12-18 hour crossing time) will be carried about 7 to 7.5 nm up Channel on the flood tide and then come back 7.5 to 8 miles on the ebb tide. On a 6.8 metre spring tide the swimmer will be carried about 13 nm up Channel on the flood tide and then come back 15 nm on the ebb tide.

english_channel_width.jpg


This means the tide will shape the crossing into a long curve, or curves, depending on the rate of progress. For swimmers (at a slow pace) the distance traveled up and down Channel is about the same and generally cancels itself out. This probably will not hold true of a propelled attempt - as the faster crossing pace may require deliberate off-set in course (fighting the current) rather than 'going with the flow'. Otherwise, they'd be swept north/south and have to complete a much greater distance crossing.

There is also a high chance that surface support will be required - by legislation, if not by the divers themselves. The Straights of Dover is the busiest shipping lane in the world, and governed by international law. For cross-channel swimming attempts (and attempts to set records in other "irregular craft") support vessels are typically required by British and French maritime authorities (for purposes of tracking/de-confliction) and have to be supplied through verified agencies (CSA and CSPF).

Previous record was a relay... this new attempt will be solo...

English Channel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[TABLE="class: wikitable, width: 1"]
[TR]
[TD]20 August 2011[/TD]
[TD]First Crossing by Sea Scooters[/TD]
[TD]A four-man relay team from Scarborough, North Yorkshire, headed by Heath Samples LL.B Hons, crossed from Shakespeare Beach to Wissant.[/TD]
[TD]It took 12 hours 26 minutes 39 seconds. It set a new Guinness World Record.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Nautical chart - Dover to Calais:

doverst-2.jpeg
 
I hate to agree with Tobin, but things don't make sense. In addition to the pure numbers about power, comparisons to Tahoe have to be adjusted for drag. This is a planned 8 hour dive. That means rebreather, and that is significantly more drag than the test diver configuration at Tahoe. And if there is 2 hours of deco planned, that should mean carrying at least a couple of large bailout tanks with even way more drag. But maybe instead of carrying lots of bailout, he will use FFM and comms to communicate to the surface support. That adds more drag too.

I'm not saying it can't be done. But a single scooter is going to have a tough time bringing enough power.
 
200 ft / min is easily tolerated. 250? not so much. I own two scooters capable of ~300 ft / min, and speeds above ~220 are an acquired taste.

I'd have to ask, how do you know you are routinely in the 250 ft/min range? Without a measured course and time keeping it's very difficult to estimate speed.

James already answered, but I will confirm. I'm doing this in my local caves. We have 100' markers on the line and also known distances. I've confirmed most of the distances in my area by resurveying the passages. I've made it from the entrance of Jackson Blue to Stage Rock, which is just shy of 2600' from the entrance, in under 11 minutes. This is based on the analog watch I wear and using the second hand, not on the time on a dive computer. This was also in sidemount configuration. With a stage cylinder added, I consistently do this dive in under 12.5 minutes. In fact, you can see a video of this on my website - Rob Neto. This video is uncut once you see the cave entrance so it's easy to confirm the time and anyone who knows JB can confirm the "landmarks".


LandonL:
The article says he plans to do the entire dive without surfacing, and that it will take him around 8 hours.

You can stay at 30 fsw forever without requiring any decompression.
 
James already answered, but I will confirm. I'm doing this in my local caves. We have 100' markers on the line and also known distances. I've confirmed most of the distances in my area by resurveying the passages. I've made it from the entrance of Jackson Blue to Stage Rock, which is just shy of 2600' from the entrance, in under 11 minutes. This is based on the analog watch I wear and using the second hand, not on the time on a dive computer. This was also in sidemount configuration. With a stage cylinder added, I consistently do this dive in under 12.5 minutes. In fact, you can see a video of this on my website - Rob Neto. This video is uncut once you see the cave entrance so it's easy to confirm the time and anyone who knows JB can confirm the "landmarks".

I'll assume you are using a Magnus 950.

At Tahoe in "tech Configuration" the Magnus was at top speed 234 feet / min.

Regarding comfort, Rodney Nairne, the builder of the Magnus posted on another board the following:

You are right, runtime is important. I would use the Magnus on speed 2, and take advantage of the 2.5 to 3 hour runtime at the same speeds as a UV-26 (which gives around 2 hours). Our recommendation is run it on speed 2. Speed 3 is a nice option in certain circumstances.


Speed 3 is, frankly, uncomfortably fast for any length of time.

You are asking us to believe that your times are faster than the scooter has been proven to be in carefully controlled tested on a surveyor measured course, and that doing so is "relaxing" when the gear maker has stated it is not.

The Magnus is a fine powerful scooter. For those accustomed to riding ~200 ft / min scooter it would seem very very fast. The change in load on the diver from 200 ft / min to 235 ft / min is 38% greater. From 200 to 250 it would be 56%

I'll point out that when the Magnus was first released there were "Cave Diver" estimates that it operated in excess of 295 ft min in Tech Configuration, based on claimed times and various "known" distances in Cave passages.

I'll stick with Tahoe. Measured Course, consistent configuration, Lake with little to no current, Multiple Test divers.......

Tobin
 
You can stay at 30 fsw forever without requiring any decompression.
"forever" is limited to around 6 or 7 hours
see US Navy Manual revision 6
table 9-7 No decompression Limits.... page 9-62 : 371 minutes
 
I'll assume you are using a Magnus 950.

At Tahoe in "tech Configuration" the Magnus was at top speed 234 feet / min.

Regarding comfort, Rodney Nairne, the builder of the Magnus posted on another board the following:



You are asking us to believe that your times are faster than the scooter has been proven to be in carefully controlled tested on a surveyor measured course, and that doing so is "relaxing" when the gear maker has stated it is not.

The Magnus is a fine powerful scooter. For those accustomed to riding ~200 ft / min scooter it would seem very very fast. The change in load on the diver from 200 ft / min to 235 ft / min is 38% greater. From 200 to 250 it would be 56%

I'll point out that when the Magnus was first released there were "Cave Diver" estimates that it operated in excess of 295 ft min in Tech Configuration, based on claimed times and various "known" distances in Cave passages.

I'll stick with Tahoe. Measured Course, consistent configuration, Lake with little to no current, Multiple Test divers.......

Tobin

Have you even watched my video?? From 1:55 to 13:50 I am running on speed 3 pitch 7. You can see in the video that I do not slow down and I have not cut anything. I can post the original video with the sound of the scooter as well so you can hear the constant sound of the motor. The beginning of the gold line, which is where I kick it up to speed 3 at 1:55 is about 100' from the entrance. Stage Rock is about 2560' from the entrance, and as you can see in the video, I arrive there at 13:50. So that's 2460' in under 12 minutes. That equates to over 200 fpm. During this video I was in sidemounted Faber LP95s and an AL80 stage cylinder. I've surveyed thousands of feet of passage in JB, including resurvey of quite a bit of the main passage and I can assure you the distances are fairly accurate. They may be a few feet off. But this isn't the Tahoe Benchmark and I don't care about accuracies down to the inch. While the Magnus used at Tahoe had a top speed of 234 fpm, that doesn't mean all Magnus scooters will have the same top speed. I've seen differences in speeds with other Magnus owners I've dived with. I have gotten to Stage Rock 2 minutes faster when I don't bring a stage. During the same dive in my video the trip back took 2 minutes less. Jackson Blue does have some flow, although not much at this time, so you're right, the results aren't to the standards of the Tahoe Benchmark. However, I'm not trying to enter the results in the Benchmark. What I'm saying is during my run into the cave at just over 200 fpm and my run out of the cave on that same dive at over 240 fpm (based on the return video and leaving Stage Rock at 1:55 into the video and arriving at the bottom of the Chimney (300' from the opening) at 11:10 for a total of 2260' in 9:15) I was at no time uncomfortable. I'm not claiming 295 fpm and I don't believe those claims, but I do know Jackson Blue and I know this dive because I do it fairly regularly to get back to certain sections of the cave that I'm working in. I always do this run on speed 3 pitch 7. I consistently get to my landmarks within certain time ranges, and because of the flow out I always get out faster. And it's not uncomfortable for me. So what's your argument going to be this time?
 
Have you even watched my video?? From 1:55 to 13:50 I am running on speed 3 pitch 7. You can see in the video that I do not slow down and I have not cut anything. I can post the original video with the sound of the scooter as well so you can hear the constant sound of the motor. The beginning of the gold line, which is where I kick it up to speed 3 at 1:55 is about 100' from the entrance. Stage Rock is about 2560' from the entrance, and as you can see in the video, I arrive there at 13:50. So that's 2460' in under 12 minutes. That equates to over 200 fpm. During this video I was in sidemounted Faber LP95s and an AL80 stage cylinder. I've surveyed thousands of feet of passage in JB, including resurvey of quite a bit of the main passage and I can assure you the distances are fairly accurate. They may be a few feet off. But this isn't the Tahoe Benchmark and I don't care about accuracies down to the inch. While the Magnus used at Tahoe had a top speed of 234 fpm, that doesn't mean all Magnus scooters will have the same top speed. I've seen differences in speeds with other Magnus owners I've dived with. I have gotten to Stage Rock 2 minutes faster when I don't bring a stage. During the same dive in my video the trip back took 2 minutes less. Jackson Blue does have some flow, although not much at this time, so you're right, the results aren't to the standards of the Tahoe Benchmark. However, I'm not trying to enter the results in the Benchmark. What I'm saying is during my run into the cave at just over 200 fpm and my run out of the cave on that same dive at over 240 fpm (based on the return video and leaving Stage Rock at 1:55 into the video and arriving at the bottom of the Chimney (300' from the opening) at 11:10 for a total of 2260' in 9:15) I was at no time uncomfortable. I'm not claiming 295 fpm and I don't believe those claims, but I do know Jackson Blue and I know this dive because I do it fairly regularly to get back to certain sections of the cave that I'm working in. I always do this run on speed 3 pitch 7. I consistently get to my landmarks within certain time ranges, and because of the flow out I always get out faster. And it's not uncomfortable for me. So what's your argument going to be this time?

Rodney is pretty specific, top speed is not comfortable. Every diver I know personally that has run a fast scooter above ~220 ft / min agrees with this. I have a *Lot* of experience with fast scooters. It's nice to have a high top speed, but using it for long periods is very tasking.

Tahoe doesn't lie, the Magnus is 234 ft/ min in "Tech" config. Do you think Rodney choose a "slow" Magnus to bring to Tahoe?

Tobin
 
Rodney is pretty specific, top speed is not comfortable. Every diver I know personally that has run a fast scooter above ~220 ft / min agrees with this. I have a *Lot* of experience with fast scooters. It's nice to have a high top speed, but using it for long periods is very tasking.

Are you accusing me of lying about the way I run my scooter?

Tahoe doesn't lie, the Magnus is 234 ft/ min in "Tech" config. Do you think Rodney choose a "slow" Magnus to bring to Tahoe?

I'm sure Rodney brought the fastest scooter he had in his possession. But, as I said, I've seen variations in scooters. I'm not claiming mine can travel 295 fpm. I do know that I've had it in the 245 fpm range. That's not that far off from 234 fpm so I don't think that's an unreasonable claim for someone's personal scooter.

Oh, and for the record, what does Tahoe consider "Tech" configuration? If it's backmounted doubles, then, yes, it will be slower than someone in sidemount.
 
Are you accusing me of lying about the way I run my scooter?



I'm sure Rodney brought the fastest scooter he had in his possession. But, as I said, I've seen variations in scooters. I'm not claiming mine can travel 295 fpm. I do know that I've had it in the 245 fpm range. That's not that far off from 234 fpm so I don't think that's an unreasonable claim for someone's personal scooter.

Oh, and for the record, what does Tahoe consider "Tech" configuration? If it's backmounted doubles, then, yes, it will be slower than someone in sidemount.

The Tahoe reports are published. If you have questions I'd suggest you download the .pdf and read them.

I have *zero* desire to have this thread devolve into a pissing match about different brands of scooters.

I'll point out it was *YOU* that made the claim that operating a scooter at 250 ft / min was "relaxing" I know *nobody* else that would agree. 200 ft / min is pretty easy. The scooters I dive routinely are 200 ft / min in first gear....... 250 ft / min is a whole different story. Maybe only real studs find 250 ft / min relaxing.

Now you you have walked that back to 245 ft min. That's still faster than the Magnus was shown to be at Tahoe. Is sidemount scootering faster than backmount? I happen to have tested both, and much to my surprise sidemount was slower. Now I'll be the first to admit I have limited time in side mount compared to Backmount, but.....

My side mount config was pretty slippery. 3mm wetsuit + two al 80's. I expected to be faster in sidemount. I wasn't. I was slower. I didn't have a stage or deco bottle either.

Do you have any reliable, repeatable, scooter speed trials to support your claim that sidemount scooter is faster? Please don't waste my time with anecdotal reports. Real, repeatable, data.

Bottom line for this thread; the claimed speeds of 160 meters / min are a fantasy IMO. 200 ft / min (at least for mortals ) are reasonably achievable.

Tobin
 

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