Diver missing - Pelham, Alabama

[dreamdive]

So,... How is one to get the experience to do the deeper dives (50m (150 ft) is beyond recreational limits) & cave, if it is strictly limited to 50m (150 ft) or cave penetration? How about those who want to use it for photography/ videography & not scare off the wildlife with bubbles? It is easy to say, they should only be used for this, or that,... but 1 size does not fit all.

Tammy,

there is no use arguing with somebody who has an agenda and right now he is beating his drum. Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing. But, the freedom to listen is even greater. Happy CCR diving sis

 

[tstormdiver]

Photography/Videography if you want to use CCR you need a buddy who looks over and after you like a hawk and you trust him with your life, while you do the activity (since it is unlikely you can properly monitor the unit).

After you have achieved your proficiency for deeper dives, then just use it for that.

Common sense.

There is a place for CCR, but it is complex and more risky than OC (and more expensive where Air or N32 are suitable gases for the dive).

Was it worth using it for this dive or dives like this one? [I am asking, I never dived the place].

Sure, it is riskier, never doubted that. I accept it. In fact my instructor tried multiple times to dissuade me from buying & learning the unit. I have the end objective of longer cave dives & possibly deeper (trimix) dives in the future. I am in the realm of gaining the experience needed to make the deeper or overhead environment. But by your first suggestion, one should either 1. not dive a CCR all together or 2. Immediately do those dives you mentioned, without gaining the needed experience first. I personally do not do photography & I constantly monitor my controller & monitor how my body feels. Is it a 100% guarantee? No.... but there is no 100% that you will return from an OC dive other than to not dive in the first place. I learn more & more from every CCR dive I do, to me that is worth every dive, completely.

 

[gianaameri]

Sure, it is riskier, never doubted that. I accept it. In fact my instructor tried multiple times to dissuade me from buying & learning the unit. I have the end objective of longer cave dives & possibly deeper (trimix) dives in the future. I am in the realm of gaining the experience needed to make the deeper or overhead environment. But by your first suggestion, one should either 1. not dive a CCR all together or 2. Immediately do those dives you mentioned, without gaining the needed experience first. I personally do not do photography & I constantly monitor my controller & monitor how my body feels. Is it a 100% guarantee? No.... but there is no 100% that you will return from an OC dive other than to not dive in the first place. I learn more & more from every CCR dive I do, to me that is worth every dive, completely.

Once you have had the training and gained the experience, after that, that is when I suggest it may be time to accept that the CCR is not the best tool for every dive.

Say this diver had 300 hours of CCR diving (I do not know, maybe he had lots more), would a. a CCR have been the most suitable tool for this dive, or b. would OC have been safer/cheaper?

I am asking since I have no direct knowledge about this dive site.

 

[bamamedic]

Once you have had the training and gained the experience, after that, that is when I suggest it may be time to accept that the CCR is not the best tool for every dive.

Say this diver had 300 hours of CCR diving (I do not know, maybe he had lots more), would a. a CCR have been the most suitable tool for this dive, or b. would OC have been safer/cheaper?

I am asking since I have no direct knowledge about this dive site.

its a 26 acre quarry with a max depth of around 150 feet. You don't *have* to dive CCR, but I guess if you're trying to keep your CCR skills current, and you want a nice 2 hr dive to look at the cool rock walls without having to drag a bunch of gas with you, CCR seems like it would be an appropriate choice. Lots of CCR divers use the quarry to keep their skills sharp.

 

[tstormdiver]

Once you have had the training and gained the experience, after that, that is when I suggest it may be time to accept that the CCR is not the best tool for every dive.

Say this diver had 300 hours of CCR diving (I do not know, maybe he had lots more), would a. a CCR have been the most suitable tool for this dive, or b. would OC have been safer/cheaper?

I am asking since I have no direct knowledge about this dive site.

I do accept the fact it is not always the best tool for every dive,... hence why I do not teach OW or any other courses in it or do much vacation diving in it. I also still practice in my doubles from time to time, for when I do OC cave. I do not know that particular site either. My local quarry only gets to about 110 ft (36m). Unfortunately I am quite landlocked here in KY. What about skills maintenance? Pretty important, I would say. I will hazard a guess that a vast majority of my rebreather experience will be in my local quarry, as it has been for my OC experience (over 700 dives in that quarry alone). It is a 10 hr drive to ther nearest FL caves or to any saltwater,.. then the local quarry is only an hour & a half.... do the math of what would be more afordable. Generally speaking a rebreather (or any scuba equipment for that matter) is only as safe as the diver using it.... any of it can be used incorrectly or abused.

---------- Post added October 13th, 2014 at 10:00 PM ----------

Tammy,

there is no use arguing with somebody who has an agenda and right now he is beating his drum. Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing. But, the freedom to listen is even greater. Happy CCR diving sis

Good point. Just making the case that "one size does not fit all" everytime. Maybe there are some that have the advantage of having the perfect environment & circumstances to use the equipment at its optimal capabilities,... but for others (like me) it is not a reality, & those of us in that boat, must make do with what we do have available.

 

[MalibuJerry]

When I was a CCR diver (for over a decade on two different units) I did many dives with my unit that definitely did not require CCR. The purpose was to keep my skills sharp and to practice with the unit in less demanding circumstances so that when I did the deep decompression dives, where CCR is clearly the best tool, I would be ready.

 

[gianaameri]

Generally speaking a rebreather (or any scuba equipment for that matter) is only as safe as the diver using it.... any of it can be used incorrectly or abused.

Yes, but when we have divers who until before their fatal dive are perfectly healthy, and their skill level is tops, and they are meticulous about their equipment and preparation, and they have an incredible amount of experience, and are at the far end of the learning curve (and you get diminishing returns from any additional training)... generally, when it is these divers that unexpectedly pass way, it makes me wonder whether if the choice of equipment was right for that dive that day.

There is great value before a deep dive or before a series of demanding dives to have a first dive as a shake-down to confirm the equipment is fine and so are the skills and the mind, but somewhere, say after several 100 hours of rebreather diving, maybe we should consider whether we are using the CCR because we want to, rather than because we have to, and if the additional risks vs. OC are worth a life.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Yes, but when we have divers who until before their fatal dive are perfectly healthy, and their skill level is tops, and they are meticulous about their equipment and preparation, and they have an incredible amount of experience, and are at the far end of the learning curve (and you get diminishing returns from any additional training)... generally, when it is these divers that unexpectedly pass way, it makes me wonder whether if the choice of equipment was right for that dive that day.

Past performance is no guarantee of future results, as the securities disclaimers say. On the one hand, you're not wrong: every time any one of us builds, dons, checks and dives a CCR we're spinning the chamber to see if we're the unlucky devil who dies from statistically unavoidable human error. It's a fairly large chamber, and the numbers do say the fewer times you spin it the better your overall odds.

But on the other hand, in for a penny in for a pound. If the dive's safe enough to let a CCR novice do it to build time and skill on the unit, it's a funny thing to condemn an old hand diving the same unit on the same dive because he likes it.

 

[darushin]

Unit was reportedly a rEvo III.

Well that changes things a little. If it was a RMS enabled system, then the odds a bypass/burn-through are really low if he was on his first dive of the day (assuming he didn't drive for hours with it prepacked). Perhaps someone should ask the authorities to contact paul, im sure he would be more then willing to help (especially if it is a unit failure).

Daru

---------- Post added October 14th, 2014 at 09:04 AM ----------

Photography/Videography if you want to use CCR you need a buddy who looks over and after you like a hawk and you trust him with your life, while you do the activity (since it is unlikely you can properly monitor the unit).

After you have achieved your proficiency for deeper dives, then just use it for that.

Common sense.

There is a place for CCR, but it is complex and more risky than OC (and more expensive where Air or N32 are suitable gases for the dive).

Was it worth using it for this dive or dives like this one? [I am asking, I never dived the place].

15 yrs ago you would be right, but not today. Just like Nitrox, modern ECCRs (Prism 2, Optima, Revo III ) are far more safe and redundant then units even a few years ago and are to the point that once price comes down I would imagine that the days of OC tech diving being the norm will be numbered. Are they to the point that a diver can bypass OC and do open water certs strictly on CCR? No, but if the industry keeps pushing it as they are currently doing we are probably only 1-2 generations off before a ECCR/ESCR gets approved for open water certification

Daru

 

[gianaameri]

15 yrs ago you would be right, but not today. Just like Nitrox, modern ECCRs (Prism 2, Optima, Revo III ) are far more safe and redundant then units even a few years ago and are to the point that once price comes down I would imagine that the days of OC tech diving being the norm will be numbered. Are they to the point that a diver can bypass OC and do open water certs strictly on CCR? No, but if the industry keeps pushing it as they are currently doing we are probably only 1-2 generations off before a ECCR/ESCR gets approved for open water certification

Nothing has really changed despite the units being better, more advanced/sophisticated and cheaper.

Fatalities hit both novice and expert and the probability is independent one dive from the next.

To translate, training does not seem to reduce the likelihood of a fatality nor does experience.

Equipment improvement and automation does not seem to do the trick.

Now same as back then you start diving rebreather thinking "this is not going to happen to me." Then, as time goes by and it hits a few of your friends/acquaintances you start thinking "if I am not careful, this is going to happen to me." Then, you come to the reality that "if I don't stop doing this, it is going to happen to me."

Nothing has changed, despite notable improvements in equipment and electronics over the years.

It seems like the probability of a fatality on rebreather is a constant and independent from one dive to another and independent from training and experience and social background and education...

It is a very democratic tool.

Whether human error precedes machine failure, or machine failure precedes human error, the outcome is the same - so it matters little which came first in terms of outcome.

Nitrox is a fixed FO2. Rebreather is not.