Diver missing - Pelham, Alabama

[Dr. Lecter]

It should be clear to everybody that if there are two ways to perform a task or activity, and one way is cheaper and safer than the other, then the cheaper and safer way should be the logical choice over the less safe and more risky one.

I assume you will immediately cease diving as a recreational activity, then, and take up something cheaper and safer that is an alternative way of achieving the same goal, such as knitting. See? I can make up imaginary distinctions in what's "best" for strangers on the internet, too.

 

[gianaameri]

I assume you will immediately cease diving as a recreational activity, then, and take up something cheaper and safer that is an alternative way of achieving the same goal, such as knitting. See? I can make up imaginary distinctions in what's "best" for strangers on the internet, too.

You keep on missing the point, and I think you are capable of understanding, hence I try one last time, one more time.

Everything we do, investing, adventure sports... involves risk (there is no adventure without risk).

Some risk is unavoidable because it is that residual risk which we cannot mitigate - we have to accept it (or not do the activity).

Knitting, can give you tennis/golf elbow or similar conditions.

If the activity is diving, I use the tool available to me which is best suited for the activity.

Deep diving and long cave penetrations - rebreather for its logistical advantages.

30 - 40 meter Open Water diving, OC Air or N.

Now, with the help of a team of sherpas, I could do the same deep dive or long cave penetrations with OC rather than rebreather - but I do not have a team of sherpas at my disposal for one week to 10 days at a time.

So, logistically, I can progressively, "solo," carry and stage more and more equipment in the cave each day, and progressively, in safety, increase my penetration - using the rebreather I use little gas and this allows me to have to only take the rebreather out of the cave each day and the scooter if used (while most of the heavy stuff can stay in the cave, hidden or staged).

From a risk management perspective, no need whatsoever to use a rebreather where OC is cheaper and safer and offers no logistical advantage.

Does CO2 retention and increased WOB with rebreather make me high?

Even if it did, and that was the hidden motivator to use more and more rebreather even when not needed, I would not use it (rather have sex on land than get an induced high from a rebreather).

OC = cheaper and safer.

CCR = more expensive and less safe.

OC better than CCR from a risk management perspective (certainly for 30 - 40 meter Open Water dives).

Pure logic and risk management based on relative risk/benefit analysis.

I need not explain it again in this thread and won't (but for your benefit did so one last time) - as I think it possibly maybe a lesson to be learned from this incident.

 

[vincent54]

As with any technical sport, isn't it normal to practice? Formula one drivers don't show for a race without hours of practice, so why would the CCR diver attempt a deep/cave dive without practice. Why practice with a truck if your racing a car. It shouldn't matter if a future dive was planned or not, practice is always a good thing.

In terms of simple and inexpensive, can't get easier than free diving. Free divers are at a similar risk as rebreathers, CO 2 build up.
We have plenty die doing this activity.

Freediving=cheap,not safe
CCR=expensive,not safe
OC=can be expensive, sometimes not safe

So there really is no logical answer.
It's not the cost or complexity that should determine how to dive. Choose the form that stokes you.

It's a sad outcome, and thoughts and prayers to the family.

 

[gianaameri]

If the consequence of practice is death, given that there is diminishing returns to increased practice, then you have to start considering changing the practice altogether, or, if you want to practice, you have to consider if the benefit of the practice outweigh the risk.

I know little about the deceased, but it seems to me from the various posts he was already well practised and experienced.

I find great value in a shakedown dive because I do not want to discover 1800 meters inside the cave that my rebreather and/or I have a problem. I'd rather find out in an easy dive to make sure the machine is behaving as expected and I am still conversant with protocol and skills.

If he really needed this one last dive to improve his practice, only he knows.

I think his grieving family & friends would agree it was not worth it.

 

[vincent54]

If the consequence of practice is death, given that there is diminishing returns to increased practice, then you have to start considering changing the practice altogether, or, if you want to practice, you have to consider if the benefit of the practice outweigh the risk.

I know little about the deceased, but it seems to me from the various posts he was already well practised and experienced.

I find great value in a shakedown dive because I do not want to discover 1800 meters inside the cave that my rebreather and/or I have a problem. I'd rather find out in an easy dive to make sure the machine is behaving as expected and I am still conversant with protocol and skills.

If he really needed this one last dive to improve his practice, only he knows.

I think his grieving family & friends would agree it was not worth it.[/QUOTE


The last sentence agreed. It is still the diver's decision and I will respect it. I don't know of any dives, resulting in death, that are worth it.

 

[2cold4california]

Practice is for chumps.


I prefer to spend tens of thousands on equipment I don't understand and walk in with no training and an open mind.

 

[FredinPH]

No Giana, risk increases with complacency. It is well documented that highly experienced people are more apt to become complacent than newbies. There is no need for that to happen if you are disciplined with respect to your processes and procedures. But unfortunately it does happen to some.

Being new to diving I can't and won't conjecture what disaster resulted in this man failing to return home safely to his family. Truly sad and my thoughts and prayers are extended to them.

From the perspective of a former military pilot complacency kills!

There is no such thing as an "Old Bold Pilot"!

Knowledge and training can sometimes overcome mechanical failure, but when a second or third variable is introduced the odds of survival diminish exponentially! Familiarity and complacency can be the breeding ground for catastrophic failure leading to death.

Again, my thoughts and prayers are for those left behind as a result of this tragic accident. We can only hope that there will be a lesson in this for all of us to avoid a similar fate!

 

[ScubaDocER]

I see that this thread has taken an odd turn, but does anyone have any new information regarding the cause of the divers accident? Has anyone dove at Dive Alabama since it reopened?

 

[Phil_cotton]

I agree with the odd turn - been checking Google occasionally to see if anything ever gets reported officially. I have not been back to the quarry since that weekend as that was to be my last dive for the year since its starting to turn colder and just lack of time in general.

 

[MalibuJerry]

gian you entirely miss the point…the consequence of practice is not death. that is absurd. Practice is to both improve skills and stay sharp. It is particularly important in an activity involving task loading. However, there is a correlation between those who are highly experienced in any technical activity and complacency. These are two entirely different things. Thinking you have it all down because you are experienced and don't need the practice, is complacency…but so is being complacent about your procedures or equipment if you practice all the time. Nevertheless practice is important and necessary. So is guarding against complacency when you become good at something. On the other hand, taking up knitting might have been a good suggestion if the difference between these two is too opaque.