Diver missing - Pelham, Alabama

[gianaameri]

My favorite kind of ignorance: blustering ignorance. Keep yakking, kiddo.

I am open to learn what I don't know, and I don't know what I don't know.

So, I am none-the-wiser of what you are trying to communicate - other than taking a stab at me here and there (rather pointless, enlighten me/us instead with your superior know-how, please).

 

[PfcAJ]

Then why aren't you on a surface-supplied and tended FFM, or snorkling, for any and all non-overhead dives? Both are safer than OC, and both get you in the water. Whether you enjoy the complications, expenses, and/or limits imposed by those relative to OC is, apparently, irrelevant.

It would seem that using OC is purdy safe (lots of OC dives done daily with a very low incident rate) and is readily availible. That's the big difference.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

It would seem that using OC is purdy safe (lots of OC dives done daily with a very low incident rate) and is readily availible. That's the big difference.

Using a CCR is "purdy safe," too, and is less limiting. It's just not as safe as OC, which is more limiting. Hence my question about why anyone's getting under water on OC when snorkeling is safer, cheaper, and lets you see more or less the same stuff in shallow depths. Sure, you can't stay under as long, but that's the same difference between CC and OC and you guys are all about safety first.

 

[MalibuJerry]

No Giana, risk increases with complacency. It is well documented that highly experienced people are more apt to become complacent than newbies. There is no need for that to happen if you are disciplined with respect to your processes and procedures. But unfortunately it does happen to some.

 

[gianaameri]

Using a CCR is "purdy safe," too, and is less limiting. It's just not as safe as OC, which is more limiting. Hence my question about why anyone's getting under water on OC when snorkeling is safer, cheaper, and lets you see more or less the same stuff in shallow depths. Sure, you can't stay under as long, but that's the same difference between CC and OC and you guys are all about safety first.

The things you own end-up owning you (the fixation with the rebreather possibly in your case, but I have been through that phase myself).

Somewhat harder to become enthused with a snorkel, than a rebreather, and the snorkel does not make you unconscious underwater without warning.

---------- Post added October 16th, 2014 at 03:28 PM ----------

No Giana, risk increases with complacency. It is well documented that highly experienced people are more apt to become complacent than newbies. There is no need for that to happen if you are disciplined with respect to your processes and procedures. But unfortunately it does happen to some.

I think with rebreathers maybe some people become more comfortable with them after the first 25 - 50 hours, but being more comfortable does not necessarily lead to being complacent, or inattentive, or sloppy.

If you know personally some of the people who died, and read the emails which they left behind about their dives and preparations, these people were not complacent.

They were trained, attentive, meticulous, professional, and yet they went from healthy and fit one day, to dead the next with no certain explanation while using a rebreather.

Now, let us even assume that ALL rebreather fatalities, like this one, were due solely to the human factor (error, complacency, call it what you want - "not the rebreather").

Is the risk of using a rebreather worth its use for ordinary dives which can be done on Air or Nitrox?

Whilst no system is fool-proof, should not the known design problems which have lead to fatalities be engineered out (or if you wish the unit be designed to take into account these human weaknesses in the first place)?

Economically alone (cost per dive), Air or Nitrox OC is superior to rebreather for the type of dives where this poor soul met his demise.

 

[dreamdive]

Interesting! Seems this board reports on a lot of OC deaths. Guess OC is not so safe either. Maybe we should just stop diving, or driving, or hang gliding, or eating pizza with a beer while watching a game, or....

Gian, you have your view on CCR and on more than one occasion voiced it. Looks like it is just not for you!
For me, I would never do the cave dive I just did on OC. No way!
No worries, different hats for different people.

Be well

 

[Dr. Lecter]

The things you own end-up owning you (the fixation with the rebreather possibly in your case, but I have been through that phase myself).

Amusingly, I recently used that exact phrase on Facebook in relation to CCR diving. But you seem to have missed my point: you wouldn't catch me on a CCR for any dive less than two hours and/or shallower than about 200', because the annoyance of prepping, diving, and cleaning/breaking down the unit isn't worth it to me for such dives. However, I don't take my personal preferences and hold them up as a gold standard for what safety choices are and are not reasonable for others. I'll leave that to loudmouthed fools like yourself.

If someone thinks the ability to photograph fish in 30' of water is worth the risks of CCR, or that the experience of diving the unit itself is worth those risks, that's cool by me. We all do stuff we don't need to do, because we think it's worth it.

 

[gianaameri]

We all do stuff we don't need to do, because we think it's worth it.

When it comes to rebreathers where OC would have been the safer and the cheaper alternative, it is called miscalculation.

That is the lesson (or reminder) I draw from this one further unnecessary loss of a life because in all likelihood there is nothing further we can conclude from this one incident.

We are likely never to really know what killed this one diver. We have though to try and make something of it, so we talk about it, some with big mouth and some with little ones.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

When it comes to rebreathers where OC would have been the safer and the cheaper alternative, it is called miscalculation.

The Prophet has spoken. All Hail His Authoritative Determination of Acceptable and Unacceptable Risks!

 

[gianaameri]

The Prophet has spoken. All Hail His Authoritative Determination of Acceptable and Unacceptable Risks!

This post raises another issue.

What rebreathers do to perfectly normal and educated adults that have common sense in all other matters of life, except when it comes to rebreathers?

It should be clear to everybody that if there are two ways to perform a task or activity, and one way is cheaper and safer than the other, then the cheaper and safer way should be the logical choice over the less safe and more risky one.

Furthermore, OC (in its various expressions, backmount, sidemount...) is just as fun (if not easier and more fun) than using a rebreather.

By all means, they are great tools for deep diving and long cave penetration, but what do they do to people that they have to become obsessed with them and use them all the time?

Do they induce in the brain the production of endorphines which OC does not?