Diver Missing, Jacksonville FL

[Biotech Diver]

It is a medical reference. Hoofbeats could be either horse or zebra. Horse the common. Zebra the exotic. The solution to a (medical) conundrum is more likely the usual than the exotic. But it is more interesting to explore the exotic and always stays in the back of the mind since it is something we very much would not want to miss.

So we consider the Zebra but most always see horses.

Thank you for the explanation of an overused metaphor! (rolls eyes)

Since my wings flapping metaphor obviously flew over your head, my point was that the other sounds were being ignored. I can break it down a little further if you are still not sure of the point I was making.

Objects, even light ones, can fall straight down to the bottom if there is no or little current, I've seen it, and heavier objects can drift pretty far if there is a strong current. It could have been a medical event but the medical event could have been caused by a fast ascent. If he was at his safety stop that could possible rule that out. If he had no fish on his stringer then that would lessen the chances of a shark attack at the surface. If he had fish on his stringer it would increase his chance of a shark attack, it's not like it has never happened. A shark attack near the surface could certainly cause him to sink to the bottom quickly, especially if there was damage to his BC and a severe wound to the lower extremities. Sharks will hit their prey then back off and wait till it's over to finish.

Young people in their prime and in good physical health do have heart attacks or massive strokes, but it's rare. This is one of those accidents where we will never know what really happened. Based on the information I've read, I would not say with such confidence that it was a medical event when other scenarios are equally plausible.

 

[Bob DBF]

Yes, handing up a speargun that's got a shaft in it and bands cocked is a big no-no here too. The question is whether "unloaded" means that or that the shaft was gone.

I see what you mean. I use unloaded and fired to distinguish the two, but I could see someone might not.

 

[HalcyonDaze]

Thank you for the explanation of an overused metaphor! (rolls eyes)

Since my wings flapping metaphor obviously flew over your head, my point was that the other sounds were being ignored. I can break it down a little further if you are still not sure of the point I was making.

Objects, even light ones, can fall straight down to the bottom if there is no or little current, I've seen it, and heavier objects can drift pretty far if there is a strong current. It could have been a medical event but the medical event could have been caused by a fast ascent. If he was at his safety stop that could possible rule that out. If he had no fish on his stringer then that would lessen the chances of a shark attack at the surface. If he had fish on his stringer it would increase his chance of a shark attack, it's not like it has never happened. A shark attack near the surface could certainly cause him to sink to the bottom quickly, especially if there was damage to his BC and a severe wound to the lower extremities. Sharks will hit their prey then back off and wait till it's over to finish.

Young people in their prime and in good physical health do have heart attacks or massive strokes, but it's rare. This is one of those accidents where we will never know what really happened. Based on the information I've read, I would not say with such confidence that it was a medical event when other scenarios are equally plausible.

A glove, a dive mask, a speargun, a stringer, and a BCD with tank are not going to all land within an 8-ft radius after falling ~80 ft through the water column, even if there's negligable current (particularly if the scenario in question involves a thrashing shark and diver). The BC puncture was described as "small."

 

[Biotech Diver]

A glove, a dive mask, a speargun, a stringer, and a BCD with tank are not going to all land within an 8-ft radius after falling ~80 ft through the water column, even if there's negligable current (particularly if the scenario in question involves a thrashing shark and diver). The BC puncture was described as "small."

Before I go any further, I want to express my condolences to the person who died doing something he and all of us love. I know the family and friends have to be going through very difficult times right now.

As this is an accident thread, members will guess or speculate or analyze the event in hopes of learning from it and applying what they learned to their own diving. This event though is not one of those that will provide much opportunity to learn from other than maybe having regular and comprehensive physicals by physicians who are specialists recognized by agencies like DAN. Or maybe doing something different when diving with sea predators. Now onto my response...

So you are certain things falling 80 feet to the bottom could not possibly land within 8 feet of each other? Debris fields of sunken ships have personal items such as shoes or wallets right next to the ship's wreckage after falling hundreds or thousands of feet through a water column, but I guess that is impossible according to you, right? Those items should be miles away by your reasoning.

People tend to believe what they want to believe and grab onto the facts that support their beliefs while ignoring the facts that do not, it's called confirmation bias. A seemingly healthy person tens of miles off the Florida Atlantic Coast spearfishing with possible fish on a stringer has greatly increased their risk of a shark attack while not greatly increasing their risk of a medical event, assuming they are doing everything right while diving. Maybe they did have a medical event, but if they were at their safety stop they would be neutrally buoyant at that depth, right? How do you explain them dying of a heart attack while neutrally buoyant and then slowly settling to the bottom right near where they were last seen? By your logic, an object with some level of buoyancy or lesser density could not possibly sink straight down.

 

[uncfnp]

Thank you for the explanation of an overused metaphor! (rolls eyes)

Since my wings flapping metaphor obviously flew over your head, my point was that the other sounds were being ignored. I can break it down a little further if you are still not sure of the point I was making.

Objects, even light ones, can fall straight down to the bottom if there is no or little current, I've seen it, and heavier objects can drift pretty far if there is a strong current. It could have been a medical event but the medical event could have been caused by a fast ascent. If he was at his safety stop that could possible rule that out. If he had no fish on his stringer then that would lessen the chances of a shark attack at the surface. If he had fish on his stringer it would increase his chance of a shark attack, it's not like it has never happened. A shark attack near the surface could certainly cause him to sink to the bottom quickly, especially if there was damage to his BC and a severe wound to the lower extremities. Sharks will hit their prey then back off and wait till it's over to finish.

Young people in their prime and in good physical health do have heart attacks or massive strokes, but it's rare. This is one of those accidents where we will never know what really happened. Based on the information I've read, I would not say with such confidence that it was a medical event when other scenarios are equally plausible.

I will be sure to pass along your insights and suggestions for alteration in a medical adage that has stood the test of time because it is a very valid principle in medicine. I am sure we are all impressed.

 

[Biotech Diver]

I will be sure to pass along your insights and suggestions for alteration in a medical adage that has stood the test of time because it is a very valid principle in medicine. I am sure we are all impressed.

And I’ll be sure to ask you about the laws of probabilities or physics or just plain critical thinking, the next time I get stuck trying to solve a problem or complete an investigation at work.

 

[Biotech Diver]

I will be sure to pass along your insights and suggestions for alteration in a medical adage that has stood the test of time because it is a very valid principle in medicine. I am sure we are all impressed.

Let’s look at the actual facts here:

Diver was 46 miles off the Florida Atlantic Coast.

He was spearfishing in about 80 feet of water.

He was last seen about 5 feet from the surface, presumably at his safety stop which would mean he was likely neutral or positive buoyant.

He had not deployed his SMB which could mean he never surfaced or if he did did not get around to deploying it.

Some of his gear was found relatively close together at the bottom near where he was last known to be.

His gear and wetsuit had signs of being bitten by sharks.

Based on these facts, there is nothing supporting the theory he suddenly died of a medical event. For this theory to work one fist needs to assume a few things. You have to assume the 36 year old had an undiagnosed pre existing medical condition. You have to assume an experienced diver suddenly became negatively buoyant 5 feet from the surface and sunk straight down to the bottom. Where he resided for a period of time before being scavenger. You have to assume sharks have no interest in a spearfisher that may or may not have dead fish on the stringer.

That’s a lot of assumptions to confidently say a medical event is almost certainly what caused the accident. I argue that there is more evidence to suggest it was caused by something else.

Something else that would be important to know would be visibility that day and currents.

 

[boulderjohn]

You have to assume an experienced diver suddenly became negatively buoyant 5 feet from the surface and sunk straight down to the bottom.

That is exactly what you would expect if a diver became suddenly unconscious and involuntarily exhaled all gas from the lungs. A neutrally buoyant diver will begin to sink upon exhalation, and as the diver sinks and the gas bubbles in the wetsuit and BCD compress, the descent will become more and more rapid.

 

[Biotech Diver]

That is exactly what you would expect if a diver became suddenly unconscious and involuntarily exhaled all gas from the lungs. A neutrally buoyant diver will begin to sink upon exhalation, and as the diver sinks and the gas bubbles in the wetsuit and BCD compress, the descent will become more and more rapid.

And a medical event is not the only thing that would cause a diver to exhale. How about you make your list of why you so strongly feel it was a medical event and another list ruling out something else? I’d like to see your analysis.

 

[boulderjohn]

And a medical event is not the only thing that would cause a diver to exhale. How about you make your list of why you so strongly feel it was a medical event and another list ruling out something else? I’d like to see your analysis.

As it turns out, I am not convinced about anything, because I don't feel there is enough evidence to make a decision. You are the one who is convinced it was NOT a medical event. I will, however, reply to the point.

1. You say that people exhale enough to lose buoyancy and sink to the bottom for reasons other than medical events. What would some of those reasons be? I would think you would have to be unconscious for that to happen.

2. He was last seen during a safety stop. I would suspect a fatal shark attack during a safety stop would be noticed.

3. I would think that if he were attacked by a shark, he would have made an attempt to defend himself using his evidently unused weaponry.

4. The evidence is that he did not have any fish on his stringer. If he had, the stringer would not be next to the other gear but would have been carried off by fish attacking the contents. Shark harassment of hunters nearly always centers upon the fish that had been caught.

5. Shark attacks on divers in mid water are extremely rare. In fact, the case of a tiger shark attacking someone during a safety stop a couple years ago is the only one I know of. That makes a mid water shark attack a "zebra" in the analogy. In contrast, medical events are the most common reason for fatalities. That makes them the "horses" in the analogy.

6. As others have pointed out, the location of all the gear in close proximity suggests that the diver fell to the bottom with all gear intact.

7. Having a friend who lost her son two weeks ago to a heart attack, a son nearly the same age as this victim, a son who had no known medical conditions prior to the heart attack, I know all too well that it can happen.​

So, I have an open mind, but it sure looks like a medical event to me is by far the most likely cause. If more evidence appears, I may change my mind.

So what makes you think it was NOT a medical event?