Diver missing at Ginnie?

[JahJahwarrior]

Tom, thanks for sharing your kinder words in reply to my concerns. Really appreciate hearing from Andrew's closer friends, as well.

Bob, good to hear from you too, sorry to hear you aren't cave diving anymore. Since I had a kid last year, my own diving has been reduced.

I feel like a noticeable chunk of the group of divers who I used to cross paths with on a regular basis, are dead now. I feel quite somber. Like I want to give all of you a hug and sit down to just remember the lost and get those feelings out. Maybe it's also helped by the fact that my main dive buddy doesn't live as close and neither of us feel like sharing these death details with our non diving partners, because they would both be more stressed out when we went to dive, so the thoughts get bottled in a bit.

I would be absolutely gutted to hear that this was a gas analyzing/marking/switching mistake, but at the same time, pleased to hear that it wasn't something like a blind jump or stuck in a restriction or ran out of bailout. I also imagine the death would have been more pleasant. Every time I turn on the lamp that I made from an al80 I got from Joe, or look at my nx card issued by Yessic, I think about the report noting fingernails were gone when the bodies were found.

Do we know, if he was diving solo, how the body was found or it was known to go looking for him?

Andrew lived a life that I view as quite inspirational. I'm an economist and MBA, and I work kind of in the education space, I'm just half the age, and again, very dedicated to not dying in a cave anytime between now and when I give up diving, which I hope is beyond 62.

Every death has impacted me, but this one does hit just a little bit different. Andrew was a hell of a diver, he contributed a lot to the sport, and he will be missed.

Really enjoy hearing more stories from his closer friends about those interactions and good memories.

 

[ginti]

in professional risk analysis you typically look at 3 variables with the version that I like being multiplied on a scale of 1-10.
Severity-1 being fairly inconsequential, 10 being catastrophic
Probability-1 being highly unlikely, 10 being almost guaranteed
Detectability-1 being very obvious, 10 being almost impossible

If something has a score of 1 then you don't worry about it, but if it has a score of 1000 then you need to avoid. The scales are ever sliding and you need to independently determine the risk of any particular dive and how a buddy may affect that. In a really tight no-mount restriction then the probability and severity of an incident may go up by having a second diver in there. Conversely a backgas only dive in a cave that you have a lot of experience with and are diving well within your comfort level *say a full cave diver doing a solo dive in the Ginnie Ballroom* may not have any change in risk. A big exploration dive with lots of gas switches, work that needs to be conducted, etc may have the scale move to a smaller risk value based on team diving. There is no cut and dry answer to whether a buddy increases or decreases risk, or does not change the risk of diving, it is all based on the individual dive.

You have to individually determine what scale you use to grade a level of risk and you individually have to determine what level of risk you are willing to accept. Those may change as you age, after an injury, after a life changing event, after a long period of time out of the water, after a long period of lower difficulty diving, etc. and that is one that we are not great at establishing.

In a professional environment, I would agree 100%.

But what we do here is almost always a leisure activity. Is it worth to accept such easily avoidable risks? I need to highlight that when something goes wrong, like in this unfortunate case, a lot of people besides the diver are affected (family, friends, rescuers, etc.).

I can understand solo in some very extreme situation, like very hard rescue or specific and extreme dives, but only if properly support is present (and I am still in doubt if these things should be accepted or not). But not as an average way of diving.

Anyway, this discussion is really old, and I am not in the position to say anything to any of you solo divers or to change the community standards, so I will shut up.

Lastly, let me say that I am not attacking nor judging the victim at all. This is a common practice, so we can't blame him (we should act to change the community views instead).

My deepest and most sincere condolences to the family and friends.

 

[boulderjohn]

to answer that, the industry (rec, tech, and cave) would need a formal accident and near miss investigation process, which we don’t. We (individual divers, dive centers, and agencies) sweep most incidents under the rug as has been mentioned already in this thread.

If you look at the two threads on this case, you will see an overriding attitude that there is no point to analysis because we know the rules, and we know that people who break the rules might die. Follow the rules. End of story.

You will see the same thing in the discussions of deaths involving mistakes made with rebreathers. In a parallel to Chris' analogy of the pilots and how changing the configuration of the instruments dramatically reduced the errors, posters will suggest that a change in the design of the rebreather could make those mistakes less likely, but those comments will be rebuffed by others saying, "Nope. User error. End of story."

 

[ginti]

In a parallel to Chris' analogy of the pilots and how changing the configuration of the instruments dramatically reduced the errors...

You made me think about adding a device to the deco stages that allows the gas to flow only below certain environment pressure values (something to place between the valve and the first stage)... But it would add complications and failure points that probably nobody wants to have...

 

[Angelo Farina]

You made me think about adding a device to the deco stages that allows the gas to flow only below certain environment pressure values (something to place between the valve and the first stage)... But it would add complications and failure points that probably nobody wants to have...

This is actually an excellent idea. And the solution is plain simple. Before Cousteau and Gagnan, reducing the pressure of air was done with a primitive first stage which did NOT compensate for ambient pressure.
Such a first stages makes breathing harder at depth. It does not stop flow entirely, but makes it quite evident that something is wrong. And such a not-ambient-pressure-compensated first stage is actually SIMPLER than current first stages...

 

[cerich]

As we discuss what may have occurred, I think that it is only right to make sure Andrew's view on people learning from accidents are clear. Here are his thoughts.

"

"Here's an idea. What if we start putting up "memorial" plaques al all the sites where people have died. It would have pictures of the deceased, and a brief description of how and why they died. At the bottom, we could end with "honor these people by learning from their deaths. please don't dive without sufficient training and preparation." It'll be sufficiently respectful to not piss off their families, but will tell a pretty chilling tale. Biut it's not really a memorial, it's more like those anti smoking ads with some guy with a tube out their throats.

Making it personal might get the message across better."

"

 

[oceancurrent]

Fact: the least risky diving is not to dive at all! Lots of people find any diving unacceptably risky and don't engage into it. Thankfully, nobody gives said people a forum to advocate for a ban on diving for those who do it. Yet, we have to listen over and over again to GUE fanboys trying to impose their risk belief system and profiles onto the rest of the world! Your religion - your choice... just stop sullying Andrew's memory with it for God's sake!

 

[Lorenzoid]

Yet, we have to listen over and over again to GUE fanboys trying to impose their risk belief system and profiles onto the rest of the world! Your religion - your choice...

Where did THAT come from? I saw only one mention of GUE in over 100 posts, and it wasn't advocating anything GUE.

 

[Chris Stock]

It was a death. Not sure on the specifics just yet, but he was an experienced technical/cave diver, who happened to be a friend of mine. That's all I know at the moment

Very sorry to hear that man.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

As we discuss what may have occurred, I think that it is only right to make sure Andrew's view on people learning from accidents are clear. Here are his thoughts.
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