Diver killed by propeller in Cebu

[bill22]

Wow, no one uses them, and American divers that refuse to use them?! Stunning! Are these guys diving in a swimming pool?! Many places I have dove and many places all over the world, you could be gone, gone, gone with the currents. Riding around the skiffs with the boat guys looking for the rest of the divers quickly demonstrated how tiny heads dressed in black are. And the horns, which I also carry, are good but I wouldn't rely on them completely due to the wind, weather, people not paying attention, the motor running, etc.

I'd much rather carry the SMB than bob around for 36 hours in open ocean waiting to be found.

I'm with you... I have no desire to be bobbing up in down in the ocean while people are looking for me. I've spent a lot of time in open ocean and am very aware of just how tiny a person in the water is.

I don't know why this is such a problem in Belize. If you require them to have SMB's or they don't dive, then there isn't any problem. This was the policy in Guam when I dived there. From what I have seen or heard this is also the policy on most liveaboards as well no matter where you go in the world. In Guam like in many other places, though what you were paying for is a ride to the dive site and a briefing. You were buddy'd up on the boat.

In the Philippines and apparently in Belize, you generally have a guide with you. My experience in the Philippines is that the guides have them [SMB's]. Apparently this is not the case with most dive ops in Belize.

The key is education.... At least the knowledge of how important it is should be communicated during OW. Training should be given as soon as a diver is comfortable in the water and has gotten their buoyancy skills down. I wouldn't consider most people who goes straight into AOW after OW to be ready yet (always exceptions of course). If they're not paying attention they're going to find themselves on the surface!

As most of us know, the "average" scuba diver may not do more than a dozen dives a year, and those when they go on vacation. Even if they are more experienced than that, they may have had a long layoff, and we all know that skills deterioate when they aren't used.

A person who is not comfortable in the water is not ready for SMB deployment in my opinion. They can get themselves in trouble. Step at a time is the way to go IMHO. Having said that, I believe that it's a good idea that people who are going to participate in scuba diving on a regular basis should be striving towards improving their skills to become a better, safer diver.

Although I'm a big believer in everyone being responsible for themselves, I also recognize that not everyone is ready to move to the next step. I believe that being aware of the need, and finding out if you have a capable guide who is going to keep safety foremost, is information that would be good to know when choosing a dive operation.

As I said elsewhere in the thread though.... we don't have enough information to judge. What was her experience level? did she have a problem and have to surface quickly? We don't know. Let's not judge all dive ops (and divers) in the Philippines because of one accident that we don't have all the facts about.

 

[paolov]

the carrying of surface marker buoy and the utilization of it is on a case to case basis.

SMB like any dive equipment needs, proper training and practice for its effective utilization. Its a skill that is nice to learn.

it's use is determined by necessity of the dive (location, time, condition)

its an added safety feature of a DM if he has one and is very very comfortable in deploying them for his team during the dive when necessary.

after all . like all skills , it would be an advantage to have than a liability.

some guys with smb or sausages can keep them out of sight until the time they are needed, it helps alot in preventing snags.

 

[bill22]

the carrying of surface marker buoy and the utilization of it is on a case to case basis.

SMB like any dive equipment needs, proper training and practice for its effective utilization. Its a skill that is nice to learn.

it's use is determined by necessity of the dive (location, time, condition)

its an added safety feature of a DM if he has one and is very very comfortable in deploying them for his team during the dive when necessary.

after all . like all skills , it would be an advantage to have than a liability.

Good points.... if a person hasn't had proper training and practice, they're liable to get themselves in trouble.

If nothing else this accident has generated discussion on how to dive more safely and that's a good thing.

 

[CODMAN]

I've met a few Brits who were pompous asses... I don't say they're all that way

Bill, I didn't know you had been to Gen San and met with....:cool2:

 

[clgsamson]

:rofl2: HahahahahHahahaha

 

[peterbj7]

Really :shocked2:

What is "experienced"? How many people do we see who show up and "think" they're experienced when in fact they aren't? I think that you find individuals like that everywhere You state that it's a serious problem there in Belize with the local DM's and Instructors who are after all PROFESSIONAL's :shocked2:

I don't know about the Americans you are seeing in Belize... I only know that the ones that I've seen in this part of the world are using SMB's and as I said it was required when I dived in Guam (a US territory). There were usually around 20 of us on the boat and generally with the exception of a few Japanese divers, were all Americans.

In the Philippines again, as I mentioned, the dive ops I've dived with both locally and foreign owned (but usually with local guides) either utilized SMB's or returned directly to an anchored or moored boat.

You seem more bent on coloring all North Americans as un-safe divers based on your limited experience in Belize. The world is a big place. Experience varies

I've met a few Brits who were pompous asses... I don't say they're all that way

Why so defensive? Nowhere have I said that "all North Americans are unsafe divers", and I certainly don't think that. However, this area caters for recreational divers and most who come here are from the USA (at least 75%) with at least half the remainder from Canada. Holiday divers are the same the world over, and if I had to pick one nation of "unsafe" divers it wouldn't be the USA. But nonetheless DSMBs are not part of the recreational diver profile in the USA, and I doubt if I've seen more than 20 or 30 in all the thousands of divers I've worked with here over the years. British diving conditions are much more like the US NE (say) and DSMBs are part of the culture. It's normal equipment for every diver, at any level.

"Experienced" is a relative term, and in this context I mean people with a hundred or so dives. "Experienced" in their eyes, rarely so in mine. Why is that such a big issue?

I don't know if I used the worlds "serious problem" in relation to DSMBs. Perhaps I did, I haven't checked. It is a fact that virtually no dive guides here carry DSMBs so they surface their groups in the open ocean without much warning. Some make a big show of purging their regulators shortly before they surface so the boat will see them, rather missing the point that if the boat doesn't already know where they are it's unlikely to see a cloud of bubbles. And that if the boat isn't already on station t won't have time to get there before they pop up. I have witnessed incidents involving this and have heard of others. No, it isn't a serious problem, just in the way that diving without an octopus isn't a serious problem 95% of the time. Hardly the point.

Why do local guides, DMs and Instructors, not carry DSMBs? They have at no point in the diving careers been taught to do so, and their peers don't carry them. Most dive guides here learn from their peers here, and most then go to somewhere like Utila for their IDCs. I've not been there, but from what I can tell they're not taught there either. The DMs and Instructors I've trained here, not many of them, have in all cases moved on (as I closed my operation) and I sometimes see them diving with reel and DSMB attached. Equally I often see those items still firmly stowed when a dive is ending. It just doesn't seem to be part of their culture.

The other point I made which I don't think you mentioned is that amongst serious tech divers in the USA and Canada and all British and northern European sea divers, not only do they routinely carry and use a DSMB but they observe a colour coding rule - red for normal, yellow for emergency. Makes perfect sense, but outside those groups doesn't seem to be followed. Some manufacturers, and I'm amazed that the UK's AP Valves is amongst them, make DSMBs with one side red and the other yellow. Removes any ability to signify say an out-of-air emergency.

You're using the term "SMB". I'm using the term "DSMB". They are profoundly different. An SMB may be what many Americans term a "safety sausage", capable of inflation only at the surface so it can be waved. A DSMB is deployed during the dive, usually at the start of the ascent, and is on a reel held by the deployer. Thus it marks the point at which the diver will surface, and because of the considerable buoyancy of the better ones the setup can be used as an ascent platform, which makes maintaining a constant depth a cinch even with very rough surface conditions.

I'm not trying to antagonise anyone, and your reaction to whatever I said rather surprises me. I see poor diving practices all the time and I try to change them. All I'm doing here is relating some of them. Incidentally, I've done a fair bit of diving in the US and I've only ever seen DSMBs on tech boats taking tech divers out. I don't think I've ever seen one on a rec boat in, say, the Florida Keys. But tech boats off Miami? - sure, everyone has them. The right colour too.

 

[CODMAN]

Use of a DSMB is simply not taught in many places! And it isn,t a part of the official PADI OW, AOW, rescue diver or DM courses! I learned simply becaus my instructor is religious about it and I'm glad I did. It just makes sense! I presume it isn,t a part of the British or european PADI courses either, but aren,t there other decent sized agencies over there? Is it a part of their courses? Or is it just peer teeching peer to use them... That is definetly not the case in Canada...

Whatever the reason, I still think it should be a mandatory part of the more advanced courses...

 

[peterbj7]

It's not a part of PADI teaching period. But decent PADI instructors in the UK do teach it. BSAC has it as part of its curriculum. There has been a major move for new UK divers away from the old club-based approach, where much of what you learned was by example from your peers, to "school" courses which follow the minimalist approach common to PADI and probably most recreational agencies world-wide. They teach diving in warm water and it's simply not applicable to more testing conditions, as a coroner in England said a few years ago concerning the death of a PADI AOW student in a flooded quarry.

Still, there are many dive clubs in Britain and most are now "non-denominational", ie. they accept divers trained with any agency. Originally only BSAC club-trained divers were admitted. Members who go on weekend dives soon pick up safe diving practises from other more experienced members.

I do occasionally teach a DM course here, but that usually only if someone puts the thumb screws on me. I always recommend people do that training level back home, with a local instructor attached to a dive club that they also join and dive with. I also like the Rescue level to be done that way. Produces a far more rounded and capable diver, and things like DSMB deployment are just natural steps along the way.

 

[chip104]

hey pete, nice to know you teach the deployment. My AOW instructor also taught me how to do it but I really needed to practice in order to get it right.

My problem is that I don't practice enough, something that I should be doing more often.

 

[bill22]

@ Pete... Thanks for clarifying

Call it a difference in customary terminology. When I refer to an SMB I'm thinking about something inflated at depth to signal boats on the surface there is a diver there. When I say "Safety Sausage", I'm thinking about a tube that is inflated at the surface. My apologies for the confusion on that. SMB was how it was referred to by my instructor and in conversations with others seems to be the common term in my area.

I was taught use of an SMB (or DSMB ) during my PADI Rescue course. I do think (as I've already said) that it should be at least mentioned in OW and AOW. Taught in AOW for those who are ready (as some instructors already do). I think Rescue would be an appropriate place to make it part of the curriculum. By that point a diver should be comfortable in the water. If he isn't he shouldn't be a Rescue Diver

Thanks again for the clarification and the info. I agree "Experience" can be a very subjective term. I'm surprised (perhaps I shouldn't be) that there apparently or people who think they've learned it all with only a "100 dives"