Diver found missing in Laguna's Shaw's Cove

[freewillie]

I take visibility reports with a large grain of salt. I was diving at Shaw's one day and it was barely more than a body length of vis. I posted on the O.C. list that we had eight feet. Another poster who was in the Crevice at the same time said it was better than twenty feet. I've read some reports of forty to fifty feet at Marineland. I began diving there right after they closed in 1987. In 384 scuba dives and numerous days of free diving I have never seen more than thirty feet on the best days.

Agreed. Visibility reports can vary. It is after all, a judgement call. But, especially for Laguna Beach the viz can vary along the coast depending on the beach. You can have 20 ft at Crescent Bay next to Shaw's, then have 10 ft at Shaw's. In large part due to how the beaches and reefs face the swell. In general 10-15 is about average and 15-20 is great, over 20 and you have excellent for Laguna. If viz was hovering around 10-12 ft with a bit of surge it is very easy to get separated.

Going back to predive planning, I try to discuss buddy separation especially with new buddies. My regular dive buddies it is always the same, look for 1 minute then surface. Assuming the reports are true and these were certified divers not students on a certification dive buddy separation and what to do in that event should have been part of the predive routine.

 

[brnt999]

Agreed. Visibility reports can vary. It is after all, a judgement call. But, especially for Laguna Beach the viz can vary along the coast depending on the beach. You can have 20 ft at Crescent Bay next to Shaw's, then have 10 ft at Shaw's. In large part due to how the beaches and reefs face the swell. In general 10-15 is about average and 15-20 is great, over 20 and you have excellent for Laguna. If viz was hovering around 10-12 ft with a bit of surge it is very easy to get separated.

Going back to predive planning, I try to discuss buddy separation especially with new buddies. My regular dive buddies it is always the same, look for 1 minute then surface. Assuming the reports are true and these were certified divers not students on a certification dive buddy separation and what to do in that event should have been part of the predive routine.

I think a lot of this talk of "dive buddies" and their responsibilities is just theory and denies the reality of what can take place on a dive.

Let me give a hypothetical situation. Two people are taking a refresher dive with a divemaster. Maybe they are not familiar with the dive site and they are dependant on the divemaster to guide them around the site and the entry and exit from the site. The visibility is not very good. The DM leads, a second diver follows, and a third diver with a camera follows behind. Diver 2 and 3 are dive buddies. Diver 2 is apprehensive and nervous--its been a while since they last dove and they are not very experienced. Diver 2 sticks to the DM--the DM knows the way and the DM is experienced and is relied upon. Diver 3 is taking pictures and lags behind. What is diver 2 supposed to do?Because of the low visibility if they take their eyes off the DM to look back they can easily lose the DM (who is their life line.) If you take your eyes off someone for 20 or 30 seconds when they are moving forward in low visibility it is easy to lose them. So diver 2 keeps their focus on the DM and diver 3 becomes seperated. I don't think you can fault diver 2 for losing their dive buddy. The fault is on diver 3 for not staying focused.

 

[Abdullah]

I think a lot of this talk of "dive buddies" and their responsibilities is just theory and denies the reality of what can take place on a dive.

Let me give a hypothetical situation. Two people are taking a refresher dive with a divemaster. Maybe they are not familiar with the dive site and they are dependant on the divemaster to guide them around the site and the entry and exit from the site. The visibility is not very good. The DM leads, a second diver follows, and a third diver with a camera follows behind. Diver 2 and 3 are dive buddies. Diver 2 is apprehensive and nervous--its been a while since they last dove and they are not very experienced. Diver 2 sticks to the DM--the DM knows the way and the DM is experienced and is relied upon. Diver 3 is taking pictures and lags behind. What is diver 2 supposed to do?Because of the low visibility if they take their eyes off the DM to look back they can easily lose the DM (who is their life line.) If you take your eyes off someone for 20 or 30 seconds when they are moving forward in low visibility it is easy to lose them. So diver 2 keeps their focus on the DM and diver 3 becomes seperated. I don't think you can fault diver 2 for losing their dive buddy. The fault is on diver 3 for not staying focused.

The buddy is the lifeline, not the DM. You always stay with your buddy. The DM will come back for you.

In your hypothetical situation, had diver 2 stuck with diver 3, when diver 3 had some sort of problem diver 2 would have been there to help. Two heads are better than one. If they lost contact with the DM, they could search for a minute then surface and wait for him there.

 

[brnt999]

The buddy is the lifeline, not the DM. You always stay with your buddy. The DM will come back for you.

In your hypothetical situation, had diver 2 stuck with diver 3, when diver 3 had some sort of problem diver 2 would have been there to help. Two heads are better than one. If they lost contact with the DM, they could search for a minute then surface and wait for him there.

Thats your theory. The reality is that diver 2--inexperienced and apprehensive and a lot smaller than diver 3 probably would of been casualty 2 had diver 3 run into problems. Maybe the whole dive plan sucks from the start and should have been re-thought.

 

[Abdullah]

Thats your theory. The reality is that diver 2--inexperienced and apprehensive and a lot smaller than diver 3 probably would of been casualty 2 had diver 3 run into problems. Maybe the whole dive plan sucks from the start and should have been re-thought.

It's not a theory, it's the team diving reality that experienced divers are keenly aware. And, you are inventing a lot of things that aren't known to be facts in this mishap.

When buddy teams stick close together, small issues can be resolved before they become catastrophic failures. And, bigger events can be managed more easily with a buddy close at hand. All divers are taught this in their OW classes.

 

[brnt999]

It's not a theory, it's the team diving reality that experienced divers are keenly aware. And, you are inventing a lot of things that aren't known to be facts in this mishap.

When buddy teams stick close together, small issues can be resolved before they become catastrophic failures. And, bigger events can be managed more easily with a buddy close at hand. All divers are taught this in their OW classes.

The buddy system works if both divers have the skills and the confidence to use those skills if one diver runs into problems. Thats the idea behind a refresher dive.
The buddy system works if both divers are committed to looking after each other. In any situation, not just this one, how can a diver caught up in taking pictures be committed to looking after their buddy?

 

[chillyinCanada]

Brnt, your profile shows you have 0-24 dives lifetime total. If this is correct why are you arguing with instructors with vastly superior experience, knowledge and dive education?

It is not that I can't see it from your perspective because I still remember a night dive during my early training. My buddy and I lost visual of our instructor's fins in very short order. BUT we didn't lose each other because we'd discussed the dive plan in advance and we were trained to be our buddy team.

 

[brnt999]

Brnt, your profile shows you have 0-24 dives lifetime total. If this is correct why are you arguing with instructors with vastly superior experience, knowledge and dive education?

It is not that I can't see it from your perspective because I still remember a night dive during my early training. My buddy and I lost visual of our instructor's fins in very short order. BUT we didn't lose each other because we'd discussed the dive plan in advance and we were trained to be our buddy team.

Its a fallacy that the truth or falsity of a proposition has anything to do with the person who says it.
The proposition is: If the buddy system works if both divers are committed to looking after each other, and if one diver in a buddy pair is committed to taking pictures, then the buddy system isn't going to work.
Thats my arguement--so where am I wrong?

 

[chillyinCanada]

This convo you have embarked upon needs a new thread.

The photog has a buddy and the buddy has accepted the situation. The photog may not always be taking pics and when not, may be a good buddy. Meh, lots of buddies are "same ocean buddies".

 

[Selchie in LB]

In team diving all 3 divers would be wing-on-wing with the leader in the middle. No one loses visual contact. The camera issue a big supposition here. Again I state if you are doing a refresher dive no camera! Period.

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