Diver found missing in Laguna's Shaw's Cove

[peterbj7]

If two divers are a buddy pair, they must have agreed beforehand how the dive is going to look. The diver without a camera will take it upon himself to stay with the one who has. Otherwise we're not talking about a buddy pair, we're talking about two friends on the same dive.

If the DM is guiding these two divers only, especially if the dive has been bannered as a refresher, the DM will ensure he remains in contact with the divers. If it becomes clear that the two divers in the "buddy pair" have different and incompatible ideas about how the dive should progress, the DM will attempt to mould their diving to something he can work with. If he can't then he should end the dive.

A camera should only be used by a diver justifiably confident in his diving in that area and those conditions. If the refresher is at a very basic level and covering basic diving skills the diver should not have a camera with him, and the DM should not agree to go with him if he insists on the camera.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Thats my arguement--so where am I wrong?

Brnt99, I don't want you to feel like everyone's ganging up on you, but . . .

It's not so much that you're wrong as you simply don't see the whole picture.

This talk of #2 staying with #3 ignores the entire issue of now having left the DM without a buddy. (Of course,we all know DMs NEVER get in trouble because they're superhuman.) What if the DM had gotten in trouble? Or, what if #2 & #3 stay together - and remember that the whole reason they were doing this guided dive was to get comfortable again in the water following their recent OW class so they could go on a tropical trip - they lose the DM and now BOTH freak out because they don't know where they are and they feel they've been abandoned. Or they stick together, #3 has the problem and in trying to help, #2 becomes the victim/fatality and #3 survives.

The "wrong" of your conclusions is that you seem to blindly be believing that as long as two people stick together, either nothing goes or wrong or that whatever goes wrong can be solved because the two buddies are tgoether. It simply doesn't work that way in reality.

The other instructional issue everyone is missing goes back to the camera. Was it appropriate for there to be a camera on the dive, if the dive was being done as a tune-up/refresher post-class and prior to a trip? IMHO, the camera should have been left behind on this dive. The prupose of the dive was to hone water skills and comfort level. Once that had been accomplished, THEN take the camera along on a subsequent dive.

I am guilty, as I'm sure every other photog is, of losing my group because I stop to take a pix and they're still moving ahead. It is MY responsibility to know which way the group has gone and catch up. I've seen the post from Abdullah in Abu Dahbai and he disagress but he's used to working in water (I presume) that's not only warmer and therefore less stressful, but also where the vis is likely to be four or five times (or more) than what they likely had in Laguna that day. That makes it a whole different ballagame. If I can see 50-100 feet ahead of me, I'm much less likely to LOSE the group because I can probably still see them or their bubbles and would only be falling behind as I stop to take pix. But in 10 feet of vis, you easily LOSE the group and have to have a pretty good idea of which way they were going and how far ahead they are to be able to catch up. And because you can;t see them until you're almost on top of them, one wrong turn on your part and you simply don't find them again. Someone who's in need of a refresher/tune-up dive simply isn't going to have that searching skill handy. For that reason, the camera should have stayed behind.

And from what I've read and been told, it sounds like the camera is the trigger for the separation, and the separation is the trigger for the out-of-air, and you all know the rest.

- Ken

 

[freewillie]

Which was sort of my point to begin with. It's not the staying together that's the issue, it's what do you do when you get separated.

Also, when divers have different agendas for a dive you have to communicate those ideas before the dive. Going slow taking pictures and swimming fast to cover a reef is a sure recipe for separation. There is a reason why dive photographers like to dive solo. Add marginal viz (albeit good for Laguna) divers on a refresher dive getting more task loading by bringing a camera it's no wonder that they were separated.

But, in the event everyone knew within a few minutes of losing sight to go to the surface then at least two of the three would have known to look for the missing diver, and maybe before everyone's air was empty. If the lone diver was separated and busy taking pictures then (speculation) may have breathed his tank empty forgetting to check his supply because he was too busy taking pictures. Very likely scenario for newer diver to forget to check gauges.

 

[Dive California]

The other instructional issue everyone is missing goes back to the camera. Was it appropriate for there to be a camera on the dive, if the dive was being done as a tune-up/refresher post-class and prior to a trip? IMHO, the camera should have been left behind on this dive. The prupose of the dive was to hone water skills and comfort level. Once that had been accomplished, THEN take the camera along on a subsequent dive.

- Ken

Ken...(and others)...remember the name of the Dive Shop is "Dive and Photo." Many (if not most of the "certified students" are taking a camera with them on their dive.

 

[Hatul]

The subject of a camera has popped up in this thread. Is there any evidence the deceased had taken a camera with him or is this conjecture?

 

[Sam Miller III]

Ken...(and others)...remember the name of the Dive Shop is "Dive and Photo." Many (if not most of the "certified students" are taking a camera with them on their dive.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The correct name is : "Liburdi's Dive and Photo" located in Irvine. Owned and operated by Joe Liburdi for about 15-20 years. By OC standards it is one of the newer dive shops, as compared to Aquatic Center etc

The owner and the shop encourages underwater photography, which is good in most cases, but not on a check out or tune up dive.
sdm
NAUI instructor #27

 

[brnt999]

I have thought about it, and I think the point I was really trying to get at, is that a lot of times when accidents happen comments get posted questioning the actions of the buddy. When someone runs out of air its not the buddys fault--its the victims. When someone panics and bolts for the surface its not the buddys fault--its the victims. When someone gets seperated from their buddy or a group--its not the buddies fault--its the victims. Ultimately most accidents start with a decision or action of the victim. People are reluctant to put the fault on the victim.I have read a few books lately--Shadow Divers and Deep Descent--which describe many diving fatalities and the buddies actions are not questioned-the divers are held accountable for their own death.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Quick comments:

Hatul - Camera on the dive is not conjecture. Reported by wife and eyewitness.

Sam - Liburdi no longer owns it and hasn't for a few years. Is now know simply as "Dive & Photo".

Dive California - Yes, I was aware. But just because they're taking cameras with them all the time doesn't mean it's always a good idea. Photoing is an advanced diving skill (aka distracted diving), not a basic one (IMHO).

Brnt999 - Re post #77, I pretty much agree with you 100%. One of the hardest things to do in expert witness-land is to testify as to how the victim was the author of his/her own demise. Hard for the family to accept, hard for juries to accept sometimes, and requires walking a delicate rhetorical line. Yet my study of 300+ fatalities reported to DAN over a 4-year period showed that 69% of the time, "diver error" was the cause and that points directly back to the victim setting up the circumstances of his/her death.

- Ken

 

[uncfnp]

I have thought about it, and I think the point I was really trying to get at, is that a lot of times when accidents happen comments get posted questioning the actions of the buddy. When someone runs out of air its not the buddys fault--its the victims. When someone panics and bolts for the surface its not the buddys fault--its the victims. When someone gets seperated from their buddy or a group--its not the buddies fault--its the victims. Ultimately most accidents start with a decision or action of the victim. People are reluctant to put the fault on the victim.I have read a few books lately--Shadow Divers and Deep Descent--which describe many diving fatalities and the buddies actions are not questioned-the divers are held accountable for their own death.

That's an interesting departure from one of your initial threads on SB. I hope that means that you are learning something from your many posts.

 

[chillyinCanada]

Brnt, please add to your reading list: Diver Down - Real World SCUBA Accidents and How to Avoid Them