Solitude Diver
Contributor
I feel a need to re-clarify my clarification on this whole secured belt issue. Please bear with me on this
.
Acknowledged and agreed. And I might mention that the entire thread started with . A story about the death of an inexperienced diver, who couldnt or for whatever reason didnt dump his weights. This happens more than on just this occasion, and is the basis of my whole philosophy of this issue.
I do agree that experienced divers who are at a level where they are not likely to panic, are weighted properly, and are doing deep and/or deco diving where quick ascent is just as likely to kill as out of air problems, should CONSIDER a more permanent way to attach weights. I myself have a 6 lb back plate, twin HP 130s (very heavy) and am going to install a more permanent lead weight into my tank band set up as to avoid accidental dumps. (Id have to shed my whole kit). That is for me, and is NOT standard for recreational diving, and I would not try to teach that to others.
That said however, my debate started with a misunderstanding about my harness which does have dump-able pockets.
This is the post that made me concerned that I may have been misunderstood, and it in no way implies anything about the person posting it:
I am not sure of es601s interpretation but thought he MIGHT have misunderstood my meaning of harness/suspenders and even if he didnt someone else may have mistaken this post as indicating that regular suspenders on a weight belt are ok. In fact the more posts you read, the more that it sound like that would be ok. It is NOT.
However, since the debate has come up
Mike: I see your position on the issues, but have to disagree with your practices as they apply to NEWER divers, (and maybe IMO even more experienced ones). Take the debate with a grain of salt please. :05:
First of all, a two buckle system consists of two (large) quick release buckles. They are easy for a diver to deploy quickly with one hand, and do add some safety as far as accidental release goes. A good option. A crotch strap is NOT the same as a quick release buckle and cannot be compared. In an emergency I would not bet on the odds of being able to remove one (crotch strap) quickly while under such pressures.
As far as agencies teaching, I am only familiar with PADI, but assume they are all similar. Heres my take
PADI Basic Open Water Manual (2005) Chapter 2, page 92. (referring to weights) .. .has quick release that allows you to release your weight with one hand in an emergency. The quick release is the MOST IMPORTANT FEATURE ON ANY WEIGHT SYSTEM. (OK, I threw in the capitals to emphasize the quote).:05:
Page 94. Remember that you will need to wear your weight system so its clear of all other equipment and you can release it quickly with one hand in an emergency. (Yes I threw in the underline too).
Again, ..not arguing what experienced divers do for their own gear, everyone does what he wants anyway ..but NEWER divers come to this forum for advice. It routinely expresses OPINIONS which contradict teaching of professional organizations, which are set in place with safety in mind.
Surface example: Tired diver starts to have trouble keeping head above water in waves, gulps water, starts to panic, out of breath, out of air, cant inflate BC. (Or has air but cant get to inflator which happens frequently, and has also happened to me and probably most people at least once).
Another: Panicked diver tries to climb onto would be rescuer (assuming he gets too close), rescuer should get under and quickly drop victims belt to get him to surface, and keep rescuer safely below. Easy with quick release buckle difficult with crotch strap.
Another forum (Yorshire Divers?) has a post in which a Medical Examiner talks about the death of a diver who had surface problems, and drowned because he couldnt release his weights. He suggests this happens far too often.
Could be any cause for runaway decent. Broken BC, or (probably) the most likely would be ..diver stepping off boat with out turning on air? I just read an incident the other day where a diver did that (older story) and was found at extreme depth (250 feet) I believe it was one of the Doria deaths, or related to it anyway. The (experienced) diver stepped off boat and never did get air on, ditch weights, or inflate BC. That was a well trained technical diver who just F _ _ _ ed up. It happens. Even more so to NEW divers.
Imagine a newer (or any) diver who discovers they are out of air at 100 ft, discovers they are a little over weighted, BC cant be inflated (they wont use their last breath to inflate BC), and they will (as would most) panic. They are definitely going to be vertically kicking and looking to surface. My guess is they would drop belt, and then realize it is stuck on crotch strap behind them. Now, cold hand/gloves etc. and they need to try to undo a crotch strap clip? There is a reason those weights have a large quick release buckles. Once at the surface they will be gasping, probably very tired from towing up weights, and then have to try to orally inflate? Not as easy as it sound. Remove crotch strap while trying not to drown, and cant catch breath?
There is a story in Diver Down, a book on real world scuba accidents. It talks about a diver who disappeared on a wall dive, apparently he went over top of wall when buddies werent noticing, BC failed (stuck dump valve) and he fell into a runaway decent. They found him at dead at 150 ft, with no air in tanks, and weights tangled on one side of BC, hanging onto wall. If he could still talk, I am sure he would preach for easily removable weights.
There are many more articles about people who have drowned in out of air situations who could not make it to surface, and those about people who have drowned while at surface who couldnt keep heads up. I realize there are also risks for rapid ascents too.
So, it appears there are two sides and risks to dumping weights vs. not. One post I read summed it all up though: Given a choice in an emergency out of air situation (which does happen more often than it should) between A) dumping your weights, and risking DCI, then being treated at hospital or B) not being able to remove weights, gulping a lung full of water, and kissing youre A_ _ goodbye, Id rather take my chances surviving in the chamber (where I just happened to be yesterday for one of those fluke hits you can get even if doing everything right :05: ) than I would prefer trying to survive drowning.
And yes there will be arguments about panic being the real killer, and out of air is not an option, and being over weight should not happen, but in reality these things do happen. That is why standards have been set up to minimize the risks. The diver in the beginning of this post died with a weight belt on and nothing to hold it in place. If panic can be that over powering, then imagine how it could interfere with weights that are pinned in.
Bottom line is we all do what we want, but should be careful about posting suggestions to potential NEW divers (and others) that contradict what has been taught to them (hopefully) according to standards. That is unless we are more qualified than ones who establish the standards anyway.
Just my viewpoint.
-Steve
String:
Acknowledged and agreed. And I might mention that the entire thread started with . A story about the death of an inexperienced diver, who couldnt or for whatever reason didnt dump his weights. This happens more than on just this occasion, and is the basis of my whole philosophy of this issue.
I do agree that experienced divers who are at a level where they are not likely to panic, are weighted properly, and are doing deep and/or deco diving where quick ascent is just as likely to kill as out of air problems, should CONSIDER a more permanent way to attach weights. I myself have a 6 lb back plate, twin HP 130s (very heavy) and am going to install a more permanent lead weight into my tank band set up as to avoid accidental dumps. (Id have to shed my whole kit). That is for me, and is NOT standard for recreational diving, and I would not try to teach that to others.
That said however, my debate started with a misunderstanding about my harness which does have dump-able pockets.
This is the post that made me concerned that I may have been misunderstood, and it in no way implies anything about the person posting it:
es601:
I am not sure of es601s interpretation but thought he MIGHT have misunderstood my meaning of harness/suspenders and even if he didnt someone else may have mistaken this post as indicating that regular suspenders on a weight belt are ok. In fact the more posts you read, the more that it sound like that would be ok. It is NOT.
However, since the debate has come up
MikeFerrara:
Mike: I see your position on the issues, but have to disagree with your practices as they apply to NEWER divers, (and maybe IMO even more experienced ones). Take the debate with a grain of salt please. :05:
First of all, a two buckle system consists of two (large) quick release buckles. They are easy for a diver to deploy quickly with one hand, and do add some safety as far as accidental release goes. A good option. A crotch strap is NOT the same as a quick release buckle and cannot be compared. In an emergency I would not bet on the odds of being able to remove one (crotch strap) quickly while under such pressures.
As far as agencies teaching, I am only familiar with PADI, but assume they are all similar. Heres my take
PADI Basic Open Water Manual (2005) Chapter 2, page 92. (referring to weights) .. .has quick release that allows you to release your weight with one hand in an emergency. The quick release is the MOST IMPORTANT FEATURE ON ANY WEIGHT SYSTEM. (OK, I threw in the capitals to emphasize the quote).:05:
Page 94. Remember that you will need to wear your weight system so its clear of all other equipment and you can release it quickly with one hand in an emergency. (Yes I threw in the underline too).
Again, ..not arguing what experienced divers do for their own gear, everyone does what he wants anyway ..but NEWER divers come to this forum for advice. It routinely expresses OPINIONS which contradict teaching of professional organizations, which are set in place with safety in mind.
MikeFerrara:
Surface example: Tired diver starts to have trouble keeping head above water in waves, gulps water, starts to panic, out of breath, out of air, cant inflate BC. (Or has air but cant get to inflator which happens frequently, and has also happened to me and probably most people at least once).
Another: Panicked diver tries to climb onto would be rescuer (assuming he gets too close), rescuer should get under and quickly drop victims belt to get him to surface, and keep rescuer safely below. Easy with quick release buckle difficult with crotch strap.
Another forum (Yorshire Divers?) has a post in which a Medical Examiner talks about the death of a diver who had surface problems, and drowned because he couldnt release his weights. He suggests this happens far too often.
MikeFerrara:
Could be any cause for runaway decent. Broken BC, or (probably) the most likely would be ..diver stepping off boat with out turning on air? I just read an incident the other day where a diver did that (older story) and was found at extreme depth (250 feet) I believe it was one of the Doria deaths, or related to it anyway. The (experienced) diver stepped off boat and never did get air on, ditch weights, or inflate BC. That was a well trained technical diver who just F _ _ _ ed up. It happens. Even more so to NEW divers.
Imagine a newer (or any) diver who discovers they are out of air at 100 ft, discovers they are a little over weighted, BC cant be inflated (they wont use their last breath to inflate BC), and they will (as would most) panic. They are definitely going to be vertically kicking and looking to surface. My guess is they would drop belt, and then realize it is stuck on crotch strap behind them. Now, cold hand/gloves etc. and they need to try to undo a crotch strap clip? There is a reason those weights have a large quick release buckles. Once at the surface they will be gasping, probably very tired from towing up weights, and then have to try to orally inflate? Not as easy as it sound. Remove crotch strap while trying not to drown, and cant catch breath?
There is a story in Diver Down, a book on real world scuba accidents. It talks about a diver who disappeared on a wall dive, apparently he went over top of wall when buddies werent noticing, BC failed (stuck dump valve) and he fell into a runaway decent. They found him at dead at 150 ft, with no air in tanks, and weights tangled on one side of BC, hanging onto wall. If he could still talk, I am sure he would preach for easily removable weights.
There are many more articles about people who have drowned in out of air situations who could not make it to surface, and those about people who have drowned while at surface who couldnt keep heads up. I realize there are also risks for rapid ascents too.
So, it appears there are two sides and risks to dumping weights vs. not. One post I read summed it all up though: Given a choice in an emergency out of air situation (which does happen more often than it should) between A) dumping your weights, and risking DCI, then being treated at hospital or B) not being able to remove weights, gulping a lung full of water, and kissing youre A_ _ goodbye, Id rather take my chances surviving in the chamber (where I just happened to be yesterday for one of those fluke hits you can get even if doing everything right :05: ) than I would prefer trying to survive drowning.
And yes there will be arguments about panic being the real killer, and out of air is not an option, and being over weight should not happen, but in reality these things do happen. That is why standards have been set up to minimize the risks. The diver in the beginning of this post died with a weight belt on and nothing to hold it in place. If panic can be that over powering, then imagine how it could interfere with weights that are pinned in.
Bottom line is we all do what we want, but should be careful about posting suggestions to potential NEW divers (and others) that contradict what has been taught to them (hopefully) according to standards. That is unless we are more qualified than ones who establish the standards anyway.
Just my viewpoint.
-Steve
